my home network is secure (or as secure as it can be with the time Im willing to devote to it) but I rely heavily on the router firewall for that security, if a bug was found (or more likely when) Id hope that the person discovering it would inform the vendor first
would kind of like a silent update than some little shit crashing my router

How would I write a program that asks "What is your name?" and if it's "Unix" then it prints "You're great" and if it's "DOS" it prints "Get away!"?

you are joking right?

fgets, strcmp, printf, exit

Thanks. I'll try to figure that out

how can i load an image (png|jpg) on terminal?

haha. candide is no longer an operator.

ah, callow youth.

hi everyone.
got a q:

hi atom
really?

I suggest that you learn how to spell "question".

I got a s

yay, flame the guy that gets in

it's impossible for your machine to execute code it hasn't been programmed to execute; if your machine has been programmed to accept my arbitrary code then there's no moral or ethical violation commited, when i introduce my code to yours.

int millisec = something; millisec+=somethingElse; // lots of times sec += millisec / 1000; millisec = millisec % 1000;
on a motorola micro I worked on you could do an integer division and it would get the result into one register and the reminder into another, eliminating the need to do a division twice

thats a viewpoint but thats like saying if I forget to lock my front door its ethical for you to steal my stereo, in fact its worse than that, if I use a lock but you can break the lock its ethical for you to steal my stereo

heh

You still fail to understand that the internet is public property.

as a human being you have been programmed to process arbitrary text.
if you are told to hand over your wallet, then there's no moral of ethical violation committed, if you do so.

hi

no its not, its a publically accessible system but that does not mean that every system on it belongs to everyone else
my systems that are on the internet are my systems, who has access to them is down to me to decide

Really?

this sounds to me like the endless munchkin debate: in games, there are (basically) two types of rules: Rules as Written, and Rules as Intended

Don't intentionally be an idiot.. really.

don't forget "Rules as i want them to be"

it's very simple.
rules are a means by which to apply power.
the power of those who enforce the rules.

Who enforces the 'rules' over the internet?

well, it's very easily translated: a computer system is basically a set of rules: by executing arbitrary code, you are not breaking the logical rules, but you are breaking the "rules as intended" rules.

that's all that there is to it — moral rules are those which people tend to follow thoughtlessly.
men with guns.

Where are these 'rules as intended' stated?

simple enough to me, you break into a computer or deliberately write code to facillitate your doing that then the penalties should be the same as if you break into a house or get caught on the roof of one at 3am with a crowbar

well… that's the problem. Rules as intended can only be interpreted as such, they can never be said to be exactly 'as intended'. then they would become 'as written'

personal data on your own machines is property, basic rule of (western) socities is that the right to own private property is sacrosanct

Everyone with a computer wields the power than anyone else weilds.
That's just dumb.

what idiocy is that?

but you can tell, if somebody writes a web server, it's not supposed to be used to break into his computer and execute arbitrary code, even though such an exploit exists.

noirlord, are you a republican?

having a computer is irrelevant to it.

that's 'rules as intended'

the person with power is the one who can do things to you that you'd rather not have done.

no (and a bit arrogant to assume Im American as well)

such as pick up a telephone and have you arrested.

amazingly there are people on the series of tubes who speak English and are not American

noirlord, where do you think I come from?

anything else is simply some fairy-tale that you've picked up though years of brain-washing.

no idea you have not said

and you'll note that breaking various laws gives people excuses to do that kind of thing.

noirlord, ok, by republican i mean far right wing

and that laws are largely arbitrary.

I dont adhere to any political party or viewpoint, if forced to Id probably come down somewhere near libertarian

Zhivago, even if they are they have a government and people with guns behind them

therefore everything they say is right!" viewpoint

oh wait that's what you're saying, nevermind

As I said earlier, this is all opinionated.

no.
this is simple fact.

well the part about people with guns is pretty much true for all countries draichis

…

so I have no idea what political party I would join, since the things I think are good are from both sides of the debate (more to politics than just left and right wing as well)

noirlord, your statement about personal property is pretty right wing

Hi i'm making a c wrapper, so i'm wondering what type of interface is prefered in C

personal property is an artifact of law.

the right to own property is not right wing, socialism allows for the right to own property

Class_Method( int,int) or Method_Class(int,int) ?

well it's true.. government == "people who can do violence to other people without breaking law"

mostly I think the job of government is to build infrastructure, provide basic education, common defence and stay the hell out of everything else

rights are laws.

Im in favour of small government, I loathe the nanny state that the UK is heading towards

noirlord, and the way they do that is by forcing you to pay taxes

Im happy to pay my taxes

It's funny, how many whitehats the government employs..

:?

nocturnal, I live in real socialism.. and I hate it.

where's that?

actually Ill restate that, Im happy to pay my taxes as long as everyone else is expected to pay theirs and equally, I get annoyed when I pay a higher % of my lower income than the more wealthy do

Zhivago, Scandinavia

scandinavia is not a country.

the need for taxes is obvious, the way they are collected is where the problem occurs, personally Ive been in favour of a flat rate tax for everyone for a long time
Id do away with business taxes, house taxes, council taxes etc and just replace it all with a single tax on income
it amounts to the same thing in the end and it closes the loopholes that the rich use

Auris-: haha
Auris-: it's occupied by norway/sweden right?
I hear that swedes will become a minority in sweden in the following 30 years..

noirlord, about 40% to 50% of my income goes to paying taxes

you think its any different here?

of the part you see …

maw, I worked it out at 46% one day

a ok
including the hidden taxed ok
don't get when spending it again

a flat tax is not a very sensible idea.

Here, it's significantly less unless you have a very high income, or do not have a TFN.

Why do you smile so often, Qantourisc

sorry
i'll never smile again D:

noirlord, first, i pay 40% of my income.. then i pay 25% for every item I buy.

for example, I pay 22% basic tax, 9% National Insurance on my income, so I lose 31% off the top before I start, my local government tax accounts for a remaining 10%, I then pay 17.5% on anything I purchase thats not food, 8.5% on any energy I purchase, 80% on beer, 80% on cigarettes, I pay a
tax to watch TV

A flat tax is indeed rather stupid - The poorest aren't able to pay as easily as the very wealthy.

araf, a flat tax rate would benefit the poor actually if it was equally applied *across the board*

I suggest you cut out on cigs.
No, it wouldn't.

Qantourisc, I'd prefer "Class_Method".

discarding a tax on income would perhaps be a better choice than a flat tax.

Auris-: thanks also do you prefer a void* or a pClass ?

It'd be a heck alot simpler.

taxing consumption would be far better, if you can manage to book-keeping.

yes it would, if you look at the current system the poor pay a higher percentage of their income than the rich do, if you applied a single flat tax rate across the board adjusted to generate the same level of income the tax the poor pay would come down

draichis, yes, norway + sweden.

nah, income is consolidated
you mean, such as %0?
can you produce statistics to back up this claim?

Here, the poor pay alot less than the rich.

I was just wondering..
I want to move to dubai

as it stands now the system is weighted so that if you are poor and make a little bit more you end up *losing* money becuase the tax rate goes up..to a certain point then you basically can avoid most tax

Heck, if you early less than 6k a year, you pay no tax on income. (Which is great for students still living at home)

Qantourisc, too vague. with C you need to pay attention to detail and adapt to that. but I would never recommend broken hungarian notation.

the system is unfair, unbalanced and unequally applied

your complaint is about brackets — please be accurate.

draichis, Norway, Sweden and Denmark. I live in Norway

I work full time at a job that has shitty pay but becuase Im at uni part time I just dont have the time to devote to a better paid job, in any given month I have less money than a couple that has a kid and neither of them work

Auris-: If you request a new instance of a class to the C wrapper, should return a void* or a fictional meaningless typedef pClass ?

how is that fair, Im working hard to get an education and better myself and my reward is to have less money than someone who sits on their arse all day

maybe it's best to return void* … since pClass woudn't give any protection anyway …

you've already drifted off into right-wing fantasy-land.
what return do you expect from your current deprivation?

my gf is 19, she's a full time student, she's also pretty ill at the moment, she gets no hand outs, she works for every penny she has, if she quit uni, popped a kid out and applied for state handouts she could sit on her ass all day and be better off

Qantourisc, if those are your choices then void*.

instead she struggles, how is that fair?

uh, you're living in a fantasy again.

if you can work you should work, the job of the state is to help those who cant help themselves not to help those unwilling to help themselves

#politics

how much do you get for being a single mother with one child?
facts please, no more fantasy.

Not that much..

Auris-: unless you have a better suggestion on how to return a type safe pointer

Zhivago, you get your rent covered, you get your local council tax paid, you get free prescriptions, you get free dental and you get about 90 a week

Qantourisc, there is no type safety.

Auris-: void it then

uh, and what does a child cost per week to support?

Zhivago, if you add up what rent, council tax and the other stuff costs then add it what you get in direct benefits then the total is more than what my gf lives on

so what? answer the question.

The benefits aren't that great.

yeah, $90 a week sounds really good

Zhivago, thats 180 a week, Im in the UK
2 dollars to the pound (roughly at the moment)

irrelevant.

You want to live off welfare now?

how much does it cost to support a child per week?

Or food stamps?
A growing child..

other people can support a child and work without hand outs, my ex had a little boy, she worked and paid her own way, she did not rely on statehandouts

Zhivago, in norway you get about 3 516.282 USD a month

likewise irrelevant.

my gf is 8 months pregnant, there are going to be some major changes in my life within the next few months.

if you can't support a child on your own income you shouldn't be having one

why can't you answer the question?

more poverty

A child requires a lot more than $90 a week, tbh.

what is the cost to the state of an unsupported child?

becuase I dont know how much it would cost to raise a child per week, I dont have child to raise

then why are you babbling nonsense about this, you idiot?

hahaha

that's why having children you can't support shouldn't be allowed

becuase I fail to see why my taxes should pay someone else to raise their child

do you support enforced abortions and infanticide?
what is the cost of an unsupported child?

I fail to see why we have millions of people sat on state handouts and we are raising quota's on immigrants to fill jobs they could be doing

do you support the continuance of poverty, high crime and such?

not particularly.
so, answer the question.

down the line I want children but I wont start a family till I have an established career, own my own house and am in a stable relationship since I want to give any children I have a good start in life

Dammit, I have to wait two hours to go driving around the city. ;[

I don't care what you want — what is the cost of an unsupported child?

you tell me

do some research.

What the fuck is an unsupported child

And why is that? That should motivate you more to become successful.

you seem to have the viewpoint that the state should support all kids?

one which doesn't a basic level of support.

I just turned 20, and my gf is 8 months pregnant. We're far rich, and I'm only in my second year of college. (Sept i would be anyhow).

uh, how stupid can you be? I'm of the opinion that you should tell me how much it costs for the state _not_ to do that.

hi folks, how can I get rid of the "unused parameter" warning in C? In c++ I can just remove the variable name but as far as I see this is an error in C?

can stand without falling over

I'm not advocating anything — just asking you to step out of your fantasy and into reality for a moment.

I see; aren't all citizens of a state supported (children or otherwise)

not necessarily.

You want to be a single mother.. remember that.
On welfare
Oh..

hehe

consider the cost of a lack of preventative medicine.

Do you resort to name calling as a consequence of low self-esteem, or over inflated ego?

why those idiots in the US spend more money and die earlier.
I'm not calling names — he's being an idiot.
the sooner that he realizes and stops, the better.

that's your judgement

of course it is.

if expecting parents to take responsibility for offspring they produce is a "fantasy land" then so be it

what are the costs imposed by parents who do not?

Death, I should hope.

until you can answer this question, you have no rational point.
you may be confusing "by" and "on".

Oh, indeed. It's late

direct costs in terms of state support, increased costs becuase kids from a low income background have a higher rate of medical problems, problems with the law and lower educational standard

so, how much is it worth to spend to reduce those costs?

The cost imposed is dependant upon the childs requirements..

you end up with a generation in poverty breeding another generation in poverty..in my home town you have 3rd generation families now where no one works

how do you escape that situation?

Why don't they work?

becuase they would hardly be any better off if they did work

They all have $99 computers

So?

So they chat on irc

[in case my message is not received just sending again] hi folks, how can I get rid of the "unused parameter" warning in C? In c++ I can just remove the variable name but as far as I see this is an error in C?

Ahh, and get paid for it! Nice.

the problem is that noir is looking at individual — he is not considering the larger picture.

I see two solutions, one is to massively increase spending on welfare in the hope that the increase in quality of living and education would allow people to escape the benefit trap
the other is to create a system where been on benefits is significantly worse than working

They do that when it's worth doing so.

is it more expensive to pay those people to do nothing, or more expensive to pay for the problems of not doing so?

b

well, then you need to do research into the problem, and stop treating it as some kind of moral issue.

the least expensive option is to make people work

perhaps, but what do you then do with the children?
perhaps they should be removed from the parents and raised in government creches?

Id be in favour of state-sponsored creches and childcare if it meant that the parents could work

the parents could then be placed into force labour camps, and so on.

that's up to your compiler
read your compiler's manual

well, then that's what you need to be arguing about, rather than this nonsense about taxes.

so, isn't there a std. way? my compiler is gcc by the way.

if I think that taxes that are paid in part by me are been misapplied then I have a right to complain, we still live in a democracy here

then you need to know what the hell you're complaining about, and what you'd rather be done.

you say that Im treating it as a moral issue then you make absurd statements implying that I think parents should be placed in forced labour camps

who said that you thought anything of the kind? please be rational.

I havent insulted you, so I fail to see why I should put up with opposite

it was merely the option which appeared to be cheapest which satisfied your requirements.

Haha.

if you can find a better alternative, then that would be good.

ok then, what would you do?
you are so good at accusing me of been irrational, lets hear what you would suggest

I'd take the children away, place them in state creches, and put the parents into forced labour camps.
with the option to leave the labour camps if they can find a job.

How would those children who do not cater to the norm cope?

and having done so, get their children back.

How does this relate to C Programming.

with the usual difficulties.
in terms of rational thought rather than emotive gibberish

some of the children might grow up to be C programmers perhaps, I have no idea we seem to have gone way off topic somewhere

I think..

Enlarged difficulties, I would admit.
SOmetimes it's only a loving family that helps the child cope.

life is not fair, but it's one way to escape the traps that noir has raised.

interesting part is that becuase my partner is ill and has been in hospital for the last 11 days I have no right at the moment to complain about the system here (state sponsored healthcare), my taxes for the whole year wont even begin to cover what 11 days in hospital plus all the tests have
cost

what idiotic nonsense that gibberish?
why the hell would you ever lack the right to complain?
you may feel _uncomfortable_ about complaining, but that's quite different.
a sense of ingratitude, perhaps.

I'm well aware of that, but I do see the point you're making.

You always have a right, noirlord..
You simply choose not to.

ah well, gonna go get changed and go over to the hospital (lovely way to spend your weekend I can assure you), thanks for the interesting debate even if it doesnt relate to C programming
have a good afternoon (morning or evening) folks

welcome.

How depressing..
PoppaVic would come in soon and make the sunday complete.

You mean "should", or "will"?

what?

perhaps "ought to" or "were poppavic to come in soon it would make sunday complete".

he meant will.

Thank you all.
I still prefer my way.

Actually I think "would normally" is closer to what you said, regardless of if it wasn't what you meant.

thanks.
I still prefer my way.

It's incorrect, not even colloqial.

Great.
This is the trivial aftermath of an hourlong offtopic discussion

It's just you.

Who cares?
Grow up

I do.

Hi PoppaVic

hi PoppaVic

Mornin'

good morning.

first..coffee

We were just talking about you.

uh-oh.

Just letting you know

What I do this time?

Irrelevant.

I'm innocent, innocent I tells yah.

That may be the case, but the fact remains that we were still talking about you.

You're pretty petty, Arafangion

well, that's alright.. Gotta' have _something_ to talk of, neh?

Hey Poppa

hi IRBMe

What coffee did you just have, btw?

you mean brand?

Style.

50/50 folgers and a decaffe. Oh.. Just black
I never did go for those artsy-fartsy coffees.

starbucks

Not do I. I just have a short black made from a good dark roast, every time.

*
Alright, Later.

heh.. I visited starbucks in seattle years ago - it was overpriced.

Their coffee is rather good..

I find their coffee rather variable.
Some places are crap, and others are reasonable.

I like starbucks, eitherway.

I was raised on Folgers.. Prob is - I believe they've changed something over the years.

Yeah, they do know how to treat the customers well.

That's true. Customer service is seriously important.

I just pretty much like the coffee.. I don't really care about their customer services.

Most starbucks have couches and a heater here.

hi

And those that don't generally have soft chairs, most other places just have hard metal chairs.
Indeed.

Hrm, naruto..

I believe the seating is an inverted-logic on their part. Most places want to cycle customers in & out.

The trick is that's pretty much all they provide, most people are too busy to stay long, and they provide very little food.

Well.. it is a coffee shop.

PLEASE do not privmsg me.

So food really wouldn't be in their high priority agenda list.

Right. Plus, while most places traditionally do free-refills, I soubt starbucks does

No, they don't.

I'm sure you could coax your way through if you really needed another mug

And free refills are not traditional here.

yep. That's why they can offer comfy-seating

Most places that do actually have couches and the like do it in a reasonable way, some people might hog the couch - but it just makes the place look busier and therefore seem to have better coffee.
(Plus, people then start hoping to have a place to sit). All other seats, while soft, vary a bit, until finally if the shop is completely full, you can only get teh small chairs in the corner, away from the heater.

I should go lie down for a bit.
So later
I haven't slept since friday. It's sunday afternoon now..
I'll get an hour in.

indeed

Bye.

later

well, it sure sounds like a good scam.

The one regret a number of places have found here is free wifi /does/ keep customers in for way too long.

yeppers, it would

But it's only a problem if you don't do good food.

THe food trumps the wifi?

Aside from teh rush hours, the place is fairly quiet anyway, and to have lunch or dinner, it usually takes an hour, by that time most people want to get moving.

ah
That's often the case in food-service. Except for places selling breakfast 24/7

Of course, I'm making these facts out of thin air - I have no experience for this thing.
I wouldn't mind 24/7 breakfasts.

I don't miss food-service. Not at all.

What's breakfast like over there?

hey PoppaVic

The average would be 2eggs, hash-browns, sausage/bacon or ham, and a couple slices of toast.

That would be considered a very nice breakfast. The average here is a bacon and egg roll.

yeah, egg-muffs

Might as well be, some places put barely any bacon into them!

I believe it. Bacon-prices are always a bit high, and customers want a ton for free, too

I reckon the roll should have 1.5 rashers.
2 if you're making it yourself.

Yeah, two sounds fairly full. 1 egg in there?

Hello..how can I trasnfer images from a socket?The only binary read is fread? If yes, is it thread -safe?

Of course, though if I'm making it myself, I often end up using 0.5 tomato, toasted.
Toasted so that it's soft.

grilled tomato is always tasty

BBQ sauce is the most popular.

on the tomato?

If I'm buying, I always ask for BBQ sauce, but if I'm making it, I always use chilli.
On the bacon.

weird
I like coarse black pepper all over the bacon as it is cooked.

That's wierd.
I should try that, though.
How thick is your bacon, though? Bacon here is generally 1-1.5mm thick.

THink of it as "Pig Au'pouve"

(Not measured - just by glancing it)

Oh, shit - it's see-thru here.. Unless you pay two arms and a leg.

For some reason, I prefer it thin.

well, it's easier to chew and break, crumples, etc

Though, thick grilled ham is good too.

true

Hello..how can I trasnfer images from a socket?The only binary read is fread? If yes, is it thread -safe?

I sometimes wonder which is cheaper.
Ham lasts longer in the fridge.

Of late, only ham approaches "affordable" - it's getting irritating

I'm one of those unfortunate people who are obsessed with food and drink.

cooking or programming

I'm amazed at how expensive chicken is, though.

I tried a new way to cook a roast the other day. Seemed to work pretty well.

Cooking and programming are my two favorite habits - until I manage to find a girl, that is.

Yeah, chix are utility-meat; and folks eat tons of it.

Then it'll probably be cooking and programming… And dinner time chats

lovely

I'm deaf, the one thing I crave is good convo

I tend to find the only decent conversations right here.

Most of the convos here are crap, I do tend to get the best host convos one-to-one, be that online or over coffee.

well, "face-time" with folks makes me uncomfortable, anymore.

To me it's the main thing that makes life meaningful - relationships

And, of course, if you talk with family, it always devolves to politics and finger-pointing
Nah.. THe meaning of Life is coding and cooking
…and beer

and coding

My dad's turning deaf, so yeah, there's lots of finger pointing.

solomoncer, everything that reads stuff from your harddisk is reading binary

He's sick of it
Cooking is definetly right up there.

I always got a kick outta' my fath-in-law.. I'd watch him slip out his hearing aid, pocket it and smile at me

Lucky bastard, if I take mine out, I get very loud tinnitus.

ouch

hmm

what about just hitting the power?

in order to trasfer an image hosting from a web server or ftp and save it in memory the only way is fread?

If it's on, practically no tinnitus, if it's off, loud tinnitus.

weirdness.
more coffee - brb

The bit of stimulation I get when it's on makes the tinnitus go away.

can't just turn down the gain?

ahh
these newfangled hearingaids are all digital, shop-service. His sounds like some sorta' "nullifier"

It's actually a Cochlear Implant, and everybody experiences tinnitus in different ways.

ahhh
I've heard of those.

Works well, provided your brain hasn't forgotten how to hear.

the nullifier is in his brain
without load from the implant, it produces tinnitus.

right.

Correct. Sometimes tinnitus can be in the ear, sometimes it's the brain, and sometimes it's the nerve.

solomoncer, i'd guess that the only way is recv and write, but i don't know..

see send/write, recv/read

A bit off-topic, but can anyone tell me what the `o' in "o'clock" stands for?

of-the-clock

thank you, poppa

sure
damnit, I do not want to write a complete frickin' parser. Again. *sigh*

There's just something about writing a recursive descent parser which has this real old-timey heft to it.

I get so damned tired of it.

Bisonflex it?

I can't remember the last time I suffered them.

morning.

(continue) and '/" quotes.

lo, RadSurfer

sure glad temps cooled down

yeah, it's a relief - saves energy, too

got that right.
NasaTV's discussing landing opportunities

Landings on what?

Endeavor

the busted-shuttle

it lands "on" a runway

Okay, that's the of.
Well, there is only one landing opportunity to me — you take it down, burn up its bum, and game over means you fale bad.

I wonder if anyone's written a C program here to illustrate the take-off or landing path taken by the Space Shuttle?

it was an array of positions and a sprite! yar!

C? Eww.

source?
that screen on there now looks like Windows 98SE, lol

hmm.. Didn't the c99 std say something about quoted-strings running across lines?

"this is "" a test" ?

a test" ? I wouldn't recommend that.

iirc, something about the "newline…." stuff
yeah, not done that deliberately for years, but I thought they had made it a no-no

"this is \n \ — continuation character, lol

right

is the continuation.

is \ stilled used as a continuation character?

yeppers

right
fortran does it a little differently, depending on version. sheesh.

well, damn.. *sigh* - I guess I'll need to write a stupid gatherer

http://rafb.net/p/MDDhWI90.html
I'm slowly upgrading that …

What is an alternative OS that is able to very quickly boot up with all applications appearing exactly the same as you left it?
(For laptops)

and this is a ##C question?

Of course.
*serious

Even when I'm OT, @least I'm still discussing programming.

Earlier today I was talking about coffee and bacon, in ##c.

The one you are going to write in your leet variant of Lisp.

haven't been much C talk here today before that topic went: hacking-law-government-taxes-coffee-bacon
bhaven't been much C talk here today before that topic went: hacking-law-government-taxes-coffee-bacon/b

I did think of that, but thankfully I dismissed the thought.

-operatingsystemssucksodealwithit

Arafangion, do you mean suspend to disk-thing?

`alternative OS`, `very.quick.boot`, `duplicating last workspace exactly`, hmmmm….

I mean palm os like.

PalmPilots are cool.

Well, you can turn it on, and everything's exactly how you left it. You never actually close an application - you just jump to whatever you want to do instead.
If you jump to an application you had ran before, it comes up the same as you left it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoresistive_Random_Access_Memory

I am considering purchasing a nice SSD.

Arafangion, i never use it, but freebsd has some sort of suspend to disk option i believe

isn't this just "sleep"?

but that's probably not what you want now i read it again

Problem is that hibernation takes a while.
The speed is proportional to the amount of memory you have in the laptop.

yup
never heard of what you described though o_O

You could have the kernel write diffs to disk at regular intervals.

Additionally, various hardware stinks with hibernation/standby - especially ATI. (Most of the time it will standby properly - but every now and again it just decides that nope, it's not happy)

heh.. I remember issues like that

yup

And make sure to use a robust filesystem, media and error correction.

I actually think that the ideal OS would use a database of some sort.
Not a file system.

o_O

Maybe the OS I want is only viable if one isn't using a spinning hdd.

We are now moving out beyond the commercial realm. Other things that come to mind will 1) be suboptimal 2) stem from pure imagination and will be difficult, expensive or impossible to implement in practice. Do you wish to continue? [y/n]

sounds simply like hw/cost shrug
bubmem comes to mind.

Not neccessarily. If applications were designed to be loaded/closed regularly, and save state to a database, changes to the DB need only be saved whenever the change delta gets large, the application is closed, or the OS is closed. "hibernation", therefore, requires only the delta's to be saved,
not a bit-perfect copy of the entire memory space.
It'd be a crap java server hosting OS, that's for sure.

well, that sounds like it'd cost too much and draw juice and be slow

Remember the laws of Clarke.

99% of everything is shit?

Yeah, probably. Software is expensive - I keep forgetting that.

No, that's Sturgeon's law or something.

plus time
actually, I believe it was a quote from an admiral in wwII, but it prolly goes far further back

Isn't time the only reason why software is expensive?

I was actually thinking access, not development

In this day and age, why would you make another *closed* OS?

Hallo, how can I execute (under BSD) a shellcommand in c? exec("ifconfig…")??

wiki
Drat.

man exec, indeed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigler%27s_law_of_eponymy

sigh. And as usual, svn.sf.net dies when you need it

hmm man exec brings me a list of shellprogramms only

by "access" I meant the time/cpu spent accessing the occasionally spun up drives and the regular info

It's why I think it requires an SSD.

Thomas, look at section 3, not 1.. maybe system() is what you want?

ssd?

Or the drives could simply be continually spun, with the memory used as a spool/cache.

solid state drive

yeah, but hdd are definitely slower and need juice.

Solid State Disk. Prices are going down, and it's looking like something that will be appearing in high-end laptops soon. (Some already have it)

ahhhhh

ah ok - its similar like pphp

you mean like the usb "jumpdrives"

No. These replace the HDD, and depending on the brand, can transfer data at sustained speeds of 33 or 66 mbps.

no mechanical moving parts.
less energy, in theory

Flash drives are bad replacements for disks.

nice idea

but requiring refresh rates like ordinary ram

Some people are even proposing that they are going to result in different FS's being developed for linux.

hmm, so… They are not "stable"

well,yes and no.

I mean like bub-mem

I think it's technology with potential, but has yet to be proven

They have batteries. Don't keep important data on them and lock them up for 4 years.

yeah, it sounds interesting

I don't think it's flash.

sounds sensible, I was going to suggest hearing-aid battery

using a flashdrive as "extended ram" in xp or vista, HAHAH!

Flash is slow.

sorry, not impressed

flash also has a low lifespan

My main issue with Flash is its low write life.

Aren't all thumbdrives FLASH ?

s/F/f/
Predominantly, yes.

mostly

warranted for 3 to 5 years

Indeed, though I understand that the 'extended ram' idea is based on some hugely complicated predictive algorithm that pre-loads expected pages into the faster flash, which then gets page-faulted into ram.

jabberwalkie

well, I like USB - all they gotta' do is come up with UPB

technobabble to impress buyers

Hello
http://rafb.net/p/FgNLmg80.html - Can anyone watch and tell me what i am doing wrong? thanks!
a href="http://rafb.net/p/FgNLmg80.html"http://rafb.net/p/FgNLmg80.html/a - Can anyone watch and tell me what i am doing wrong? thanks!

no
we do not solve problems on demand

it compiles but when it uses malloc the app is closed
i just asked for help and followed the title

you don't understand lists at all: where is your book?

you never allocate memory for ListMan

and why are you assigning NULL to a char

ok i will asnwear you all

char data — how much data is this?

!book pantcho

i dont have a book i use the internet (not well i guess)
you are right
to init the data without garbage

pantcho, how do you know your malloc() successededdeded ?

well, come back when you get a book and start reading it, the manpages, info-files, etc

i need a linked lists of chars

does data look like a pointer to you…and do what Poppavic said, preferably before he explodes

That sounds scary. and overkill somehow.

pantcho, the internet is not a reference. it is a network.

i don't but usally it works

If he wants to learn he will. But, not on my dime.

"lists of chars" or "list of strings" lets be exact here.

pantcho, in russian roulette there is ussually no bullet in the chamber, do you want to play?
upantcho, in russian roulette there is ussually no bullet in the chamber, do you want to play?/u

ok guys, thanks for your help . I know you know programming
but you should not take it too rush on me

you asked us.

i am not expecting to get a solution

I was remembering a Bob&Tom routine about "The North American Russian Roulette Championships"

!k&r pantcho

k&r is The C Programming Language, 2nd edition, by Kernighan and Ritchie, http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/cbook/ - be sure to see the errata as well, at http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/cbook/2ediffs.html

yes, for help not for punching me in the gut

!books

books is http://www.iso-9899.info/wiki/Books

We are being gentle. Honest.

I have programmed a lot but not in C style , so the pointers and all the things around it are not easy for me even though i program

There are worse places we could punch.

What languaes, pantcho ?

basic
you prob' kick me out of here

The head, for starters.

"Crazy Jim is up, here's the spin… CLick. clickclickclick - wow, he's on a roll! What a competitor"

which dialect?

A$ in BASIC is more like char a[80]; in C, you need to allocate the size

PoppaVic

i did the function to return a pointer to save in memory instead return a structure.

Hip?

purebasic

Interesting.

not to be heard the first time while sipping hot coffee

i used to VB but its total bloat
bloat sucks

vb was never impressive in its entire existance
Delphi, on the other hand

May I recommend Python?

even windows… lol
Yeah.. i want to learn Python and Java for my cell phone programming skills

or lisp, or forth - something interactive _and_ educational

or something simple and straightforward like Fortran

Python, then, or hosting with java support (Given that you want to do mobile phone dev)

i dont know if it counts but i programmed my whole website with purebasic - http://www.cellphoto.net

Which is posibly the only valid reason to voluntarily learn and use it.

Did he just spam his website here?

I guess, the mobile is the future! so i should know.
no i did not

does anyone know if the elf format stores executable version information ?

shameless, lol

it is a project

Looks like it.

i have 500 unique visitors per day
i dont need any advertising

well, that's nice - now… Toddle on out and have fun.

or 30 more people from here, no offense but give you the point i dont advertise.

With 500 visitors, I think you *should* have advertising on it.

PoppaVic, you are charming
google can be your friend Arafangion

poppa gets all da compliments!

What is that supposed to mean?

Yes.. It is often said that I charming, suave, polite, generous.. (did ( miss anything?

Yeah, I just get "google can be your friend"

I [am]

that i get most traffic from google, if you optiomize your site well altough the design sucks ass

google is headed for interesting times. mark my words.

of course

Indeed.

next hatrated big brother
people starting to dislike them… and there are pretty good reasons

PoppaVic, miss anything?… humble^H^H^H^H^H

That's only part of it.

i recommand to all you have account at them , to disable the history saver.

laetus, depends on compile host you use i guess..maybe in .comment section?

ahh, true

Geez i have a C test in two days and i guess i am gonna get a big F

ok, i'll take a look, thanks.

pantcho, why?

well, that's ok - I am sure they will accept all your basic-expernece and google as a reference ;-

cuz i need to figure out the linked list and pointers with dynamic allocation and binary trees and bit shifting… a lot
its not on the sylabos
if it were i was #1
hehe

syllabus. Sounds dire

well i am not native speaker as you already noticed
but thats ok, thank you for correcting me. I remember that for the next time.

I figured you just enjoyed typo's

foreigners usually speak better than the natives, hehe

"typos"

your rong RadSurfer.

I've also noted that folks that care for their code try to type well.

I like to comment a lot

you should be a journalist then.

i meant in my coding

we need more technical-writers, fewer "journalists"/reporters

you could work for Fox News, then 100% can be 'comments'.

brilliant ideas

you - sir - are on a roll today

You guys seem very close, that is nice.

Get off irc, and keep studying.

that's a little prejudiced. All news (atleast from tv networks) is biased in one way or another.
bthat's a little prejudiced. All news (atleast from tv networks) is biased in one way or another./b

thanks, thats the best tip i got so far, good night.
Cya guys
PoppaVic, don't be harsh with the kids around your hood, thanks for the help. cya.

WHAT!?!?!?
He actually took my advise?
Damn.

sleep??

I'm getting to that.
Bed's 1 meter away.
(Takes a while to get there)

is it calling gently?

No, just looking inviting, now that I look at it.

ahh

"kids around your hood" ?

I'm still wondering why a fornat would think everyone in the us speaks "inner-city trash"
weird folks
g'night - sleep well

sweet dreams. kisses. hugs.
(that about covers it, eh)

Damn, do yiou think I can sleep now?!?Q!?

dang, you got Arafangion excited

20 minutes on the treadmill.

Excited being the wrong word.

at warp factor 7 should do the trick

I want a treadmill
I'd run miles

*sigh* I despise char-by-char reading.. It's soooo.. Depressing.

Hi

what's a single precision? Is it 2343241.1 and nothing more?

lo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_precision

woo-hoo, we finally have a wiki ! http://arctanx.id.au/fortran/index.php

brb - recycling
hmm.. Anyone use malloc/free intensive-code? I'm curious if anyone using *nix ends up with overly-fragmented memory anymore.
I've never seen it since my very early days, but I do recall it once was an issue.

Doesn't it mostly depend on which software allocator you are using?

well, I do mean malloc/free family.

But it does depend on the implementation.

I can't recall the last time I "ran out of memory".

Of malloc and free.
I attribute this phenomenon to "swap".

I was thinking of allocating large strings, in lists, as required, and reducing those then while adding smaller objects, etc.

What should byte-code contain

bytes

Is it just a simplified and syntax checked version of the normal script

no one knows, because "byte-code" is interpreted anyway

To save the interpreter from doing type checks and syntax checks?

it's "compiled" and generally suggests portability, by an "interpreter"

this is hilarious.
http://bbspot.com/News/2000/6/php_suspend.html

why?

What is different about a byte-check that would add portability.
byte-code*

it'd be "code" that the same engine that "compiled" may now "interpret" - here, there, wherever. It's completely arbitrary and the realm of whatever is interpreting and compiling.
..as opposed to strict binary-code for a specific machine, or source-interpreting (like ancient basics)

So byte-code is more like intermediate language?

no.. It's simply "not intel/ppc/etc"
it's just code for another "machine"

Ramihg, it's sortof like asm for virtual machines

right

or byte-code for the java virtual machine

once you dive into and hammer enough of the crap down, you suddenly realize it's ALL bits and octets.

What I thought about doing is compiling my parse-tree to byte-code

Sure. the jvm is just another vm or layer

after grammar checking, type checking, and all that stuff for the only reason of speed on the part of the interpreter
But i see now byte-code is more than that. Thanks
I was confused between byte-code and IML

all any "code" - byte-code, text, etc - do is to present data in a "portable form" that other people/things can use. Humans can't read bits and bytes, byt machines can.
/byt /but

is there a function for counting the number of times a character is in a string, or do I make it myself?

write it

thanks

hi

wb

thanks for the laugh, I'm on C

yea, pretty funny incident.

I never did see what it was about.

tomize, int i=0; while ( s = strchr(s,c) ) { s++; i++; }

take a look..

too busy smashing my head off the wall, and I lost the url.

http://bbspot.com/News/2000/6/php_suspend.html

o..m..g
ok, that's just sad.
well, I suspect a good lawyer can now rape that town and school-system: the sad little buttwipe has college paid for.

i hate this dsl line.

uff..

I suspect draic has even worse issues

ignorance plagues even people in high places.

What?

tis ashame.

Oh, well the net is crappy.. I'll be alright when I get back to school in a few weeks.

you spend more time blowing up on your connection than reading and all written combined

i start school sept 3rd, i can't wait.

It really is a big problem

everyone someone calls my landline, the dsl connection drops. I thought dsl was created simply to prevent that.

I can..
Dubai may have to be put on hold :[

you've had that 56k connection for a while.

yep, should be - or a setting

sysfault, my DSL drops on phone usage too

i have the line filters in place, thats all it takes.
verizon?

I've used a modem for over 20 years. 56K for over a decade

sysfault, .au we have no verizon.

I'd call and bitch

aah.

i've replaced the line filters several times.
none of them seem to help.

it sounds like wiring

i think its the modems at both ends.

I did so, spoke directly to one of the techs. They're coming to my residence tommorow to diagnose, and hopefully fix the issue.

please let us know the results? I would eventually like aDSL
…heh - I already _know_ our telco is a clusterfuck

certainly, how'd you manage to live with 56k and actually do a lot of substantial work while on it? It gets unbearable for me. Don't watch any video feeds, heavy browsing or anything?

nah.. I talk with you guys, get my email, google, and code. Downloads are usually system-related.
uploads are almost always code for folks to kibitz on or soultions for folks.

PoppaVic, wouldn't it be cheaper to take cable instead of dialup? or is your telephone-line free per minute?

*nod*

local-dialups, yeah. And, cable has it's own issues - plus they charge for TV, regardless what you scream.

well of course - if you don't want to be charged for TV, you *must* be stealing it…

ffs

I love this deitel book.
you're not alone, I'll be disconnected soon unfortunately.

um.. There ain't that much on the boob-tube public anyway; Why would I pay the assholes for umpty channels I'd never watch anyway?

I might just give up the attempt of trying to satisfy this net..

PoppaVic, that's just what the media companies think.

I found that changing ISP's can be very, very satisfying.
oh, I _know_ what they think.. Eventually, we'll simply get them in court and be able to rent the channels/services we want.
I'm patient. If I don't survive to see it, the next generation will shrug

I'm going to murder the isp

Is memcpy safe to use for duplicating structs?

It won't really solve the connection issue, however.

Ramihg, you can also assign structs.

not if your structs contain pointer

it's fine if they contain pointers, too.

part is always the telco, but the ISP can be really, really bad.

Because I have a tree, and I'd like to duplicate a certain node on it

Ramihg, just use =.

and that node is actually a linked list

you could ofcourse copy the struct but it's not safe unless you keep in mind that the memory they point to is not copied

a "structure" is simply a block of memory. You are speaking of _cloning_ the block? or getting a duplicate?

I'd get aDsl, but I'm going to school in the first week of sept so I can't really be fussed.

Getting a duplicate of a struct im pushing, so I can free the old one

I'd just use a cheap-ass modem, at home

Maybe I'm doing the wrong solution, I should just not free the original

ohh.. Umm. Yer prolly speaking of a "deep copy"

Ramihg, newstruct = oldstruct. Presumably you don't care about the value of padding bytes.

that _ONLY_ works for "shallow structures"

it works for any structure.

The struct is a linked list.

Ramihg, then the links will be copied.

I know exactly what it doesm but if he has a "deep structure", he will be fucked.

Ramihg, which is it? Do you need to copy the node, or the list?

heh

I need to copy the node.

Ramihg, then why are you caring that it is part of a linked list?

define a 'node' for us

I slept for an hour and a half then went driving in the city.

two strikes ;-/

It's almost six pm here

if you are "lifting a node" from listA to place in list B, it's usually fine. Otherwise, begin to worry

Coffee sucks

Coffee is delicious.

coffee is hot

I apologize, copying the list would probably be the stupidest thing

well, it depends on the WHY and the how.

I want to copy a "node", place it into the tree, and delete the old version
Which is probably very stupid considering I can just put the node into the tree and forget about it :/

why can't you just extract "the node" and have the tree add it?

Delicious..

oh.. I bet I know
you defined "node" as links plus data - and there are several forms, are there not?

Yep

Hrm; you can delete data now?
Alright, I'm going to have a coffee then lie down for a bit

ahhhh

coffee and sleeping don't mix well draichis

Ramihg, consider using a structure where the links and the data can be easily separated.

"node" is just a whole big pile of other nodes. a mess really

THAT can come back and bite yer nuts off.
a "node" is simple.

I was hoping i can just "pull" the node, take everything it pulls with it, and stick it somewhere else.
but make a duplicate

yeah, all you need is a "void *data" in anyones node. This makes it a "deep copy"

more like copy paste

I'd recommend you review dbopen and the glib "containers" (aka 'data types')

morning

Will study that, thanks.

sure

I have a struct udata with four char members; I'm trying to pass a pointer to one such struct using f(struct udata *u) and it was defined with struct udata UserData; however its telling me incompat type for arg 1 of my function

everyone seems to be having struct problems this morning
morning

It's very tough for some folks.. I'm not sure why - I been doing it too long to remember when I hit that "AhHA!" lightbulb.
hi cin

It's odd because I've done something very similar before and it worked, except it was an array of structs with less members

frankr, so how are you trying to pass it to f()?

just f(userdata);

I give up. How do you use find and replace in vim? I try and it highlights what needs to be replaced but then does nothing. How do I replace 1 with 2 for example?

s/1/2

:s/foo/bar/ ? I don't know.

:s/1/2/

the key to everything is: the data is not the NODE; the node is important only to the container

Ah

Hrm.. there's a big brother africa
hi Cin

1

yo

whoah

I've been looking at it the wrong way

!google orelly vi

Learning the vi Editor: [http://docs.babitch.com/O'Reilly/unix/vi/index.htm] - Alternatively, try 'oreilly' for more results.

AntiLiberal, it applies to the current line if you do not specify a line.
AntiLiberal, or range of lines.

Draconx, how do I select all lines?

:%s/1/2

AntiLiberal, %. I suggest working your way through vimtutor.

thx

the containers don't give a shit _what_ is in a datum.. They just know about their count and nodes and access. They don't even know if you are searching or not: because you should provide a callback on the datum for left, right, N, etc

Ah, Yes I'm starting to get the picture

it's a rough row-to-hoe, for newbies.. it really is.

It's the first time to get into complicated data structures

:[

Sure. Everyone fights it, Ramihg
but, every complex anything is made of simple somethings

I have a tree of struct1 of struct 2 of struct 3 of struct 2

sounds like you want container-containers-of-records
even a structure is a "container"

Im building a parse-tree. I read some books and got interested

as is an "array"
oh, parsers.. argh
I'd bet yer partial to infix-input, too?

The whole deal is that i wanted to extract a certain part to analyze freely
But the problem is, that "part" can be of infinite size

infinite, eh.

well, no - it can't be "infinite"
ever
never

i mean theoretically

no

it can go on for hundreds of inner-nodes

Ramihg, "arbitrary" is a more appropriate word.

dude, yer digging a hole - as you lack the bases for compares.

memory, screen, keyboards, drives, mice and all else is finite.

I feel like writing a novel.

I'd do more research; and then start flogging the issue into the absolutely most simple, small steps as possible.

how about a novel about two parse trees that love each other very much, but are stuck in different translation units?

hahah

Z

hah

the term 'indefinite' may be useful if people whinge about infinite.

more often than not, Z is a joy to watch in action
lo, Ramihg

uff

isp again?
heh

http://rafb.net/p/iao86C79.html — A humble beginning or a newbie bitting off more than he can chew?

oh..man…
yer in trouble

heh.

yer in deep shit. I think you are too new. Yoou want what I told you, but you NEED flex/bison or lex/yacc

I actually got the thing to work though

I do NOT want to know

you rarely need those

It made my head ache to read the first screen

I prefer to write recursive descent parsers by hand in C.
but then, I tend to be using lispish grammars, because I am not a masochist.

variable = "some" . "more" . "expressions"

this is that "infix" I spoke of.

blah — i'll come back in a few hours, perhaps it'll be up then

ah, I want to go mountain unicycling
a unicycle is a much underappreciated mode of transport.

?? Sounds like a nut-buster

nah, the seat is bigger than a bike's
it's an actual saddle
and the wheel is bouncier

well, getting a padded pipe jammed up my ass sounds like something to avoid.

these things can go down stairs happily enough, and turn on a dime.
well, that's why you have a saddle.

how long have you been a practicing programmer?
Meh — later.

you're probably too heavy anyway

besides which, your weight rests mainly on the pedals.
you can jump up stairs on the, too.

then why not just walk?

as long as you're not doing _extreeeeme_unicycling_ and strap your feet to the peddles…

well, because it's slower.
and less efficient.
but the best thing is that you can throw a unicycle into the back of a taxi or bus without difficulty.
and I've almost managed to ride more than 4 meters.

I doubt you can get chicks with unicycles though..

well, I don't need a unicycle to get chicks.

"hop on the back–oh"

my roommate from uni got a unicycle last year. apparently he's fairly competent at riding it now
i have yet to see proof

well, it's a bit like walking.
a constant controlled falling motion.

I can fall w/o a tool

well, the trick is to accelerate so that you don't stop falling.
falling off is also safer than with a bike.

I can also drive a motorcycle, (and suffer the pain); or ride a quad or car/jeep.

you just step off it, and it gets out of the way, rather than crushing you to the ground.

Why go through the trouble of riding a unicycle anyway.

there are many reasons, but briefly;

he likes it, that's all that really matters.

Ramihg, he could be planning to run away and join a circus?

When you can easily use a bicycle or car to do the same job. Kinda reminds me of lang vs lang arguing. "Cause you get more control"

no, you can't.

depends on the job.

a unicycle weighs about 5-6 kg — you can put it on a backpack.

some folks like piercings and tatooes.. It's personal, and I can respect that while shaking my head and mumbling "ouch"

it takes up about 40-50cm of horizontal space — a bike takes up about four times that.
you can throw a unicycle in the back of a car, you need to tie a bike down.

hi, mates

also, your hands are free, so you can do things with them.

Now you're talking.

and you can ride these things up and down stairs, ravines, etc — where bikes can't easily go.

Will a person using a unicycle - all the falling down get someplace faster than a person walking?

let's assume basic competence — in which case, yes.

Alright then, I rest my case ^^

because of the pedal and wheel diameter differential, you get a significant gear advantage — it's like a fixed bike.
so you can apparantly hit about 40-50 km/hr with a large road model on the flat.
but I wouldn't want to take on a bike in terms of speed

But portability and compatibility ^^

well, unicycles win on portability
not sure what you're measuring compatibility by.

terrain

then unicycles win again.

Fitting in
A unicycle would not be compatible to lets say

Yeah, but how is it with a florentine sauce?

sticky?

a team of bicyclists

agreed

compatible in which sense?

Wouldn't unicycles be significantly more dangerous to use, in any sort of terrain?

Control, speed, and someone looking from a bench that sees a guy in the middle riding a unicycle

also inedible

my experience is that they're safer that bikes.

What about those big ones

the reason being that if you lose control of a bike you'll tend to get caught by it.

What if the front wheel got stuck, so you rolled over on fell on your head.

with a unicycle there is no cross-beam
uh, a unicycle only has one wheel

Argh, that picture of the huge wheel and a tiny wheel got stuck in my head
First bicycles, apologies

which means that if you lose control, you tend to just end up with the cycle disappearing off in some direction, while you end up stumbling.
penny farthings, probably

the old O. stuff

nah, we're talking about a normal bicycle wheel, with a saddle directly above it on a fork.
except the wheel tends to be a bit more robust.

I can see how crashes would be safer, as crashes go; it's just that I'd think you'd have more of them. Maybe there's a bias there, in that people who ride unicycles tend to become expert at it

that's quite possible — I am very competent at falling off.

heh

I have done so several hundred times, but I have yet to actually fall down more than once.

I have an image of someone scaling a large rounded rock on a unicycle… a slight slip forward and ouch

you should see people scaling cars on them.
you can bounce a unicycle about 40-50 cm in the air, and catch yourself with a pedal.

I keep seeing the skateboard/rollerblade/bike folks doing stupid-stunts and losing teeth, breaking limbs, etc

so they have competitions where you climb up pallets, old cars, ford rivers, etc.

ugh, I did skateboarding, pathetic sport

The only case I can see where you'd /have/ to fall is where the wheel gets stuck or slips. It's easier than it looks, really, especially for tricks

z, ace

in which case you can usually just step off the thing as it falls
hmm, want to see a video
?

well, the "extreme sport" programs make me hope the idiots don't breed

sure

That's my line

let me upload it
well, it's 200 meg — still want to see it?

yup

I've used a unicycle in gym class, a while ago, but I never got very good at it. Some others did, so I've seen quite a few tricks.

Makes you wish your father got you into unicyclin early on

yeah, it's been interesting watching my brain rewire itself.

skateboards are slow on any but the perfect terrain, it's actually _a lot_ more energy than walking, injury prone in your ankles and body parts that hit the ground inevitably due to the fact that you can't just "step off it", because you're stood on it, it'll slip