hey peeps i have a table full of products It is a static page Would it be possible to read in all these products
JS is very useful
All of the STBs at DIRECTV were Java-based. So much fun that was.
All of the STBs at DIRECTV were Java-based. So much fun that was.
bAll of the STBs at DIRECTV were Java-based. So much fun that was./b
JS, Flash, and Java Applets, they're all pretty useful for web… JS being the most useful IMO
Really I need a good dedicated SQL book to teach me all the bit's i've missed having learnt everything I know from a combination of trial and error, dbms documentation and tutorials (In descending order of precedence)
Yeah, there are times where I regret never learning it.
But there's always something more pressing to work on.
Java Applets are rarely useful, but they have their cases where they shine
Name one.
And fill the void.
harbingerkun, they're useful for demonstrating stuff.
wtf? I was gonna sign up for facebook but they want your 3rd party email username/pass to search for people.. o_O
harbingerkun, but then Flash can also do that.
But then, I hate both Flash and java web hosting Applets.
But then, I hate both Flash and http://www.oxxus.net/java-hosting.htm">java web hosting Applets.
i use them both very sparingly but i've found them useful
not for most websites
Ironically, I find flash even more ignorant than Java.
Meh. But that's just me.
Instinctually I prefer Java (now that it's under the GPL so can be ported to pretty much any system)
However, the startup time can be a pain.
I prefer flash
s/can be/is
It's fast and has seemingly less security problems
enygma, well, that depends if you're already launched a java app.
;p
emseemingly/em
If you haven't you've got a 30 second wait at least, while staring at a coffee cup
hey peeps i have a table full of products. It is a static page. Would it be possible to read in all these products into some kind of array and then select a random product. I know how I want to do it except the site is all done in static pages so im not sure what language to use. Any ideas?
of course … you can ALSO do: INSERT INTO foo SELECT id, membershipno, 'Default value' FROM bar WHERE id NOT IN (SELECT id FROM baz) ; if you want to be really nasty
Sweet Jebus
what languages do you have available, which ones do you know, and how compatible/accessible do you want it?
That's just wrong
*bats eyelashes*
don't believe her!
it's a ruse!
yup. When he runs it it'll turn all his bank-accounts into one. Mine
I think your query officially qualifies as "rape"
:o
"It's a trap!"
it's not a topic I find an amusing basis for humour.
I'd suggest a good book on relational algebra. It can be quite fascinating …
i know php, javascript and rails for the web but can pick up any really. I believe php and JS are my options on teh server so i guess php woudl be the language of choice
haha, robot chicken?
JS is on the client, not server
oh, you meant, it's an open option to you
hm. It'd be easier with Perl, but all right. Y ou can do that in php hosting fairly easily.
JS can/is on both.
Windrose just wondering how i would go about it seeing as though all the files are just html
The Starwars Special? I guess, but it's been a meme for alot longer than that 
i want to put it onto a html page if poss
i want to make love
with you
perl should be possible too
you'd need to read in the html, then parse it. I suggest reading the file, discarding everything save the table, then cut out everything you don't need, leaving you with the trs …
sadly this isn't a matchmaking channel, you're not my type, and you'll have to be of legal age first.
yeah that sounds like a plan
if the html is reasonably structured, it's a fairly easy task for a regexp or two.
pity…
Not for me
yeah i think the table is in a good format too so should be ok to find and strip the data out
ok.. I don't understand social networks.. I'm playing with facebook and added my region.. so it lets me browse local 'groups' but there's only 3 pages and 98% is spam
Ugh, we're having net problems
Just what I _don't_ need today
The only groups that aren't spam is like.. some nazi one and a "We hate Ann Coulter" group. 
the one you join will define you forever
Much like RL. Alas.
omfg.. It only lets you choose between 3 pages at a time.. and they're in alphabetical order so everyone names their groups "AAAAAAAAAAAAA" to get at the top.. I think they expect me to click "next" 500 times
There's no obvious page token in the URL
why not just mess with the url?
oh lol
yeah.
sipher, yeah in general I've found that facebook uses needless obfuscation that makes it impossible to use for power users
'power stalkers'
How do you use it at all?
(not literally impossible of course, but not without major annoyance)
I don't heh
I was gonna put a facebook profile up to protest all my friends trying to get me to use myspace
I couldn't figure out facebook
The UI is the worst i've ever seen
then you haven't seen much
I love how there's no option to import your contacts as a file too.. they just want your usernames/passwords
I'm not saying Facebook has a great UI, but there are thousands of sites with worse.
No, there is a file option
Seriously, I can't use it.
select "other client" or something
It hurts my head
None of the links do what their names imply.
Hello. Anyone got some suggestions on alternatives to squirrelmail?
I selected "other.." and it gives me "Unsupported email host address supplied."
php-based, simple stuff
easy to implement on shared servers with a bit restrictions.
aha! found it
I've got an XML file that lists two tags, a name tag and a list_order tag. So basically I need to print out the tag name, in the order as specified in list_order. Heres an example nameThomas/namelist_order1/list_ordernameJoe/namelist_order2/list_order. Now, I've echoed it out just fine in the correct order. I now need to put 'move up and move down' buttons on the page so the order can be changed. How can I changed this o
hae you tried roundcube?
hmz, no, havent heard of it
Select "Email application" at the bottom of the screen
yeah. I found it
hm. imap
what about pop3?
Web mail systems usually use IMAP - its far more suited to it, since it doesn't require them to have a local store.
it looked nice though
Haha
Router hard reset seems to have fixed it
check for firmware updates once this is done.
it always does
freakin routers
We tried the soft reset with no effect.
Haha
Just got a message from my grandma
Apparently she hates my username on MSN
how sweet
I love my gran, she's the only 80+ year old I know who can use MSN
Hell, she has a nicer laptop than me.
my grandma uses a computer too
sometimes i talk to her on AIM
my grandpa still rejects it though
I hate IM clients
all of them
I remember my friend got me to create an ICQ account and I got flooded with secure email hosting like 3 seconds after connecting.. so that was the end of ICQ for me
omg.. the facebook job perks look awesome
medical, dental, vision with no premiums, 401k, 31 days off, free catered breakfast, lunch and dinner, drinks and snacks, onsite laundry/dry cleaning service, gym membership etc.
I'm thinking about moving back down to the bay area.. these tech companies competing with each other for benefits is just sweet
ooookay. Now I really need to find my cam. All these hot women from HS I forgot about are now single. hmm…
I'm starting to see the appeal of these social networks. heh
heh
check out www.stickam.com too awesome example on how flash's webcam abilities can be used
you'd be all like "hey baby, rememeber me? I was that dork that you used to drop your lunch on…"
Hm. Could be one advantage. One doesn't have to go around asking if people's radars are working, atleast … bah for social life.
the voice of experience?
Windrose - shush you
what would be the going rate for a full HTML/CSS/images template for a business-style site these days?
no Templatemonster/premade stuff, please
and don't be afraid to scare me
one million dollars
enygma, i'm not THAT courageous 
template = one single HTML/CSS/img page with mock text and navigation, and ready-to-use content units
possibly adding a welcome/gateway page
i have no idea whatsoever about how much that would be made by a PRO
do you already have the graphics and/or colour catalogue?
no, usually there's a logo, some company colors and a vague idea
there is a good design document about purpose and content, as i always write one
the designer would only have to put graphical work in it, rest is done by me/provided
you'd be all like "hey baby, rememeber me? I was that dork that you used to drop your lunch on…" — yeah.. and I just got a haircut, all new clothes and started shaving again.. and I'm freakin hot now.
"but you don't have a pic? yeah right…"
Whew.
Done
Wrote ~4000 LOC in about 20 hours
I don't know where the hell my cam is. Might have to get a new one but shit.. it was like $600
Windrose, is the description precise enough, for starters? i'm NOT a graphical designer as you can tell, so i might be saying stupid things
but for the moment I think I'm like the only person on facebook with no face
steal a face!
sounds so 60s sci-fi
from either John Travolta or Nicolas Cage
John Goodman!
How is stickam different than ustream.tv or justin.tv? Just private streams?
stickam? shoe on head plz?
:-)
hi, what are (rss) namespaces for?
Same as any other XML namespace. To differentiate between elements and attributes from different vocabularies that share a name but exist in the same document.
sorry, was interrupted. I'd say you'd need to expand it a little. However, it would be easier if you had a written proposal/suggestion/requirement doc. Imagining this is abit tricky.
for?
Windrose, i'd send one over but they're all in italian
Its for being unique and not used by any other language.
*chuckles* I'm rather abit to busy to actually write up a suggestion - sorry.
let's say it has purposes for the site, goals, a detailed content tree, and input like "company colors are red and yellow and management liked the old site which was based on anthracite gray"
argh, i just wish i could buy a designer like you can buy some software
from the blister-packed discount pimply student to the expensive NYC pro in the Apple-like box
Hi, i wonder if there is some fix to let IE support :hover on other elemens as 'a'
*css
javascript, no other way
but it works smoothly
INPUT, since the input becomes for example 0.7em of the P elements 0.7em, i.e. it gets smaller text than its parent. now, i heard someone saying that he doesnt usually apply a "default" size on the tags, but instead lets the page font be what it is by default. but in firefox this text is too
Use a Doctype that triggers standards mode, and use IE7
Dorward, i want all visitors to see the same thing
Dorward, "use IE7" is not a solution
the standards mode doctype is a good idea tho
Polysics, thats i guess it, i found a htc script online
that /really/ isn't an achievable goal.
too … what? Big? Why do you have your font size preference set to that if its too big?
Windrose, but the goal itself is good
unobtrusive JS beats .htc imho, but i'm not a fan of proprietary tech
i ahvent changed default font size in my system. ive just installed firefox and let it be
but ill check what it is
So you don't like the vendor default. Change it then, that's what preferences are for. The default is comfortable to read for most people. If people don't like it, its easy to change.
Polysics, i guess this is what im going to use http://www.xs4all.nl/~peterned/htc/csshover.htc
why is the input 0.7 times the size of the p? do you have an input{font-size:0.7em;} or a *{font-size:0.7em;} ?
yes, but i cannot control what other ppl has as their default. and assuming they have the default/didnt change anything, the first time they look at the page, itll be bloated with too big text
"The same everywhere" is not achievable. IE6 has shrinking, if still significant, marketshare anyway. The :hover effect shouldn't be critical.
As would any other site that respected their defaults.
0.7 was just an example. but until now ive had it almost standard to put font-size:0.7em to P, INPUT and the usual elements i use. but its not a good thing
The alternative is setting the font size to something that is too small for some users.
Too big is slightly annoying. Too small is impossible to read.
mm
is there a way i can allow a user to upload a file but not have it sent to the server, just held on the client side?
No
either upload, or not upload. You can't do both!
'upload a file' MEANS 'send to the server'
no, the goal itself is contrary to the idea of the 'web'.
hm in the page of this channel i see theres a font-size % on body, and then i take it theres an adjustment to P
oh wait, i think i know what i can do
we call this the pennsylvania shuffle
Windrose, its a subgoal
im fully with you in that users should decide. i.e, change as little as possible. but i feel the text is too big. perhaps i should redesign the entire site to fit my information better, but i dunno about that.
Is there a way to have a border just transparent?
Or should I muck about with margins.
And is there a way for divs sitting next to eachother to have just 1 px border, instead of 1+1=2?
I presume you care about IE support?
IE should Die. But ehr.. it would be nice, yes.
Then not really (other then having a 1px border on one and a 0px border on the other for the matching edge)
Negative margins not supported?
yes, it would be nice if it died.
Took on a fixed-price job where the CSS is going to make me lose money on time spent _
You could probably use negative margins to overlap them
I'll try some stuff.
question; i usually use em for units to let everything scale. but if i want some part of the page not to scale, what unit should i then use?
Nothing that's not browser specific
And even then, it's a really bad idea.
Everything will scale relative to something, with the exception of units like mm, pt and in, which are unstuiable for use on screen. Pixels might be what you want (although they scale relative to the resolution and screen size).
hmm ok. ill try that. what im after is something like wordpress.org
seems they use px
should one ever use pt? :O
Its a reasonable unit for specifying font sizes in print media style sheets.
i guess if you want fixed font size. not that i know when though
fixed font type on a fixed physical medium, yes.
mmmhm
Aka print.
i see
Advanced Web Standards Solutions" by the way?
People who say they are using XHTML, and then don't, should be beaten. With a stick.
heh yeah
what do you guys think of three column layouts?
like one large, one smaller, one smaller
They tend to work poorly at narrower window sizes
well, in this instance, it's mostly about the stuff in the left hand column
hm, are input elements usually slightly bigger in their font-size than the rest of the page/text, assuming one doesnt affect the font size anywhere? or could something else affect it? my input elements have some slightly bigger text
like sites like Engadget
hm, why do so many use @import() inside an inline style in the page, instead of a style tag with an url?
with a specification, folded until it's all sharp corners, and …
(:
Becase a style tag doesn't have an attribute that can take a URI. If you mean a link element, then its usually to hide the CSS from browsers which nowadays have 1% marketshare.
yeah, a link, sorry. well i just find it better looking to have one element to tell the browser to load an external sheet, than to have one element with some code in it to do it
one or three lines
Well, yes. Having a style sheet that exists solely to load another style sheet is silly.
not saying linecount is everything though
Lines are entirely irrelevent, bytes might count, but there's little to choose between the two methods.
mm
ill just go with link as long as its a viable solution
not deprecated
hm, isnt it correct that 80% == 0.8em ?
Doesn't much matter anyway … if you @import a sheet which @import a sheet, for instance, you'll have two http requests but it /is/ likely the UA will cache it anyway …
Iif you're talking font sizes.
yeah
has anyone any preference over website hosting companies?
google
id guess theres no site referencing all of them
yea but a company can invest more in coming higher up the results in google but it doesnt necessarily mean they offer a better service
i agree
no suggestions then
wow..
im just SO happy that i found a way, which at least to me seems to work and is nice, to make columns using divs.
it made some of my pages much easier to maintain
it's at http://www.dynamicdrive.com/style/csslibrary/item/css-tableless-form/P10/, i dunno if its good or bad but..
with a minor modification i can recurse it as well to make more columns along the horizontal axis
i was previously using a div for this
well not one div
If I have a div with a border and a background, is there any reason why setting the border to 0px should suddenly cause area covered by the background color to shrink by 12px or so?
well … if you set the border to 0px, then you've just reduced the area inside the borders - right?
uwell … if you set the border to 0px, then you've just reduced the area inside the borders - right?/u
by 1 px on all sides, in this case
not sure if its of any help, but remember that border is "inside" the box, and outline is "outside"
you've changed from "border-width: 1px ;" to "border-width: 0px ;"?
Yeah, I know, but it doesn't account for the difference here
ok
1px solid blue; to 0px solid blue;
Then 2px shrinkage would be … you didn't change the padding?
does anyone know a way to test and see if fastcgi is installed on my server?
no. I'm now stripping everything else to try to find it. It' only the top that's affected I saw later
another perfectionist question; if you have a place where you want give a class "sizeSelector" to a select element, would you do .sizeSelector or select.sizeSelector in the css? assuming theres no actual NEED to seperate it from other tags
at the top of the div inside it causes it.
So, http://pastebin.com/d25d9198e - that creates two divs that look very different depending on 1px vs 0px border, in FF / Safari on OS X
Read up on collapsing margins
can you shorthand a.new:link{} and a.new:visited{} ? so I don't need to duplicate them every time if they're the same?
hi folks, i have 4 images in one row, and i want them to take the hole width available(the images are fixed with)
does someone know how to best achive this ?
i don't want to use any tables
#css
div or li. float. width: 25%. account for margin/padding/border
so, is it the margin of the h4 collapsing here?
Well, it overlaps with different elements depending on the presence or otherwise of the border. Its not an area I'm particaully strong on.
The content only moves upwards 1px as expected, that of the border taken away. but the background suddenly wraps tightly around the text.
And there's this gap between the two areas
Well, not knowing why, but knowing what it does, I can work around it. I'll read up on it later, thanks for the keywords.
Are transparent border-colors supported well enough?
does that also work with ie ?
yes
ty
would you take a short look at my page and tell me what you think ?
just the front page
you should just paste it
http://debug.byteshelter.org/shop
it's for a friend of mine
the links are not working at the moment
i play around with the zend framework
i must say the best framework ever
for php
and what you think about the page ?
i think i'll remove the links over each image and place them inside the images
so i have more space
no comments on the page =(
what page
Imma gonna put every *word* in it's own table cell, in its own table.
http://debug.byteshelter.org/shop
just a simple test
what you think about it ?
set a background body colour
any enhancements ?
for the catItem ?
get rid of the small serif text, looks like 1995
hehe
i'll put it inside the images
it is also odd to have the caption for the image be above the image
i'll remove them completely
what do i use to make a link open in a new window in xhtml strict?
you shouldn't open links in new windows
target ?
target doesn't validate
there is javascript to do it, but even that is annoying
right. getting rid of it
users decide
plus, you will surely mad whoever is tracking stats for your site angry… or at least, I get angry tracking stats for sites which open new windows
can a span settings not override the parent color setting?
nm PICNIC
it depends what you mean
thanks, it was my lousy css
picnic?
my problem with the open new windows is it makes it look like the users spend lots of time on stupid things like "links" pages when obviously they do not
if users decide to open new windows/tabs on those pages themselves, it skews the stats in a way that can be measured as opposed to just pages with more links on them having a time of 2 hours or whatever
bif users decide to open new windows/tabs on those pages themselves, it skews the stats in a way that can be measured as opposed to just pages with more links on them having a time of 2 hours or whatever/b
that is actually fairly maddening
hi, i wonder if it's possible to do a two-color gradient at the background of webpage with css, without any use of images?
um… yes, but why?
paotzu, i cant find how
how?
.grad1 { color: #FFF; } .grad2 { color: #EEE; } .grad3 { color: #CCC; }
this creates just a bit more code bloat than using a 1k image
you could also encode the image directly
Someday there will be .svg suppport, I think that has gradients
paotzu, the problem is that i want to paste another transparent image over it again
for encoding, you base64 and for ie mhtml+vml… I think doing that is kind of silly
ah you want a layered background?
paotzu, sort of
have the transparent image be position: absolute;
paotzu, thought about that but then it will hover over the text
use z-index to force it not to
this is the same method used to create "scaled" backgrounds
z-index - yum
paotzu, ah that is where z-index is for, was wondering that for a long time, let me google for a second and have look if i understand it
paotzu, but wait
z-index is similar to left/right/top/bottom except it is in the third dimension
paotzu, then the text layer should be absolute too
no…
here is an example of a test case for position absolute background http://www.markschenk.com/cssexp/background/scaledbgimage.html
I have made "layered" backgrounds before where one of the requirements was that the "top" image be able to be altered and different subpages have different intensity of "bottom" gradients
hmm
the only gotcha was ie6, alphaimageloader, and a:hover needing a different z-index than other browsers
so basically, the bottom layer can be background-image:…, and every other layer should be absolute and z-index'ed
um, not really
*every other background layer
iirc I did position: relative and z-index for a "wrapper" container… this coincidentally fixed ie haslayout issues at the same time
then anything inside of the wrapper inherited the positioning and was above the background layers
paotzu, guess i will do the same thing then
paotzu, i thought it was possible to let css do gradients, just like in the former macromedia website
but, like I said, ie6 had a gotcha where linked images needed to be in a container of a higher z-index if they were to use alphaimageloader
it is possible
hmm the waybackmachine is down
it is like I was saying, except I typed wrong
#grad1 { background-color: #FFF; } #grad2 { background-color: #EEE; } #grad3 {background-color: #DDD; }
paotzu, well i guess i understand it all now i will spend some hours to get used to it
paotzu, thanks for your help, really appreciated
that or try to do the same color applied to all… #grad1, #grad2, #grad3 { background-color: red; } and then do different opacity and alpha filter values… but this is not valid css
I suppose opacity will eventually be valid
okay
http://www.designdetector.com/demos/css-gradients-demo-1.php
paotzu, yes i read that one, but view the source, quite ugly
exactly… it obviously takes more code to do that than a 1k image
the rationale being that it can be changed server or client side
well thats not worth messed up code
whereas with an image you'd have to use a graphics library, which is probably more efficient again
thats an excellent idea
imagemagick or gd could do such things easily
using something like that also opens the door to simply generating the "layered" background as one image, eliminating the z-index issues
well that means that everything should fit as a backgroundimage, and possibly takes up lot of space
anyone know if wsftp is not compatible with vista?
i've replaced the text now, would you take a short look agina ?
s/agina/again/
And everything's done
well, that does look nicer
How do I position something at the bottom of the page, not the bottom of the window?
position it relative to something on the page
like the body element if nothing else
ok, so position:relative;bottom:0; ?
isn
hmm, that makes the background color disappear.
odd
't possition relative, well relative to the element's default position
Why would the background color disappear?
Oh no, gotta run.
bbl
"I've been getting alot of problems with Firefox in Linux lately. It's as if my cache gets mixed up. I get images and styles from different sites mixed up."
that's mighty weird
it's called 'weatherman'
err
fucking
a
ignore that
heh
Dull movie.
hah
btw, i fixed my python problem
hey hax
hey there Zeros
Oh?
say you have a.py and b.py, you can 'import' one from the other… but say you have 'from a import foo' and 'from b import bar'… you can do that
the trick is that the 'from a import foo' has to come *after* you've defined the things that b.py needs
or… something, i'm probably not saying that right
heh
my point is that you end up with something that's like "[imports] [code1] [import] [code2]"
Ah, hmm.
but if you just do "import foo", you end up trying to import all of it, which you can't do, because at the point you're importing it, only part of it has been defined… or something
it's confusing
heh
sup reisio
heya hax
http://www.workhabit.org/resin-backed-php-drives-4x-performance-improvements-drupal
reading
wow those are big gains
Y'know, I don't understand why people bother to benchpark PHP code without employing an opcode cache.
hax, It's probably using in memory sessions and other j2ee features. Interesting comments about using Teracotta and clustering php using j2ee.
I don't know why people bother with PHP :po
mattmcc, there's an interesting comment in there about the opcode cache causing a SEGFAULT under high load, ever seen that?
Not myself, but I've heard of situations where caches seemed to reveal behavioral oddities in the zend engine.
reisio, I can write an app in php (command line or web based) faster than any other language I know.
Freaky edge case type stuff.
what other languages do you know?
As fluently as PHP?
no, period
Oh, about a dozen or so.
….for example?
Scheme, Lisp, PHP, C, Java, C++, ruby, JavaScript, lua
I've done bits and pieces in Perl, obj-c and a couple of other lanuguages, but don't remember enough to do much.
you know Ruby well?
Not well, being as i've only been using it for a couple of months on and off in my spare time
well … Perl, I'd say, is a *damned* sight better at command-line hacks
so you don't know any other popular scripting language well, yet you think your claim about being able to write an app in PHP faster than in any other language is fair? :p
Windrose, i'm sure it is - I lack the familiarity with it's syntax to be as productive as PHP or even C++ though
or s/fair/inciteful
insightful? :p
Yes
heheh, inciteful $
Because I said "I"
Not you.
And for me that is true.
well that makes it a pointless claim :p
*nods* It's really worth learning.
it's like me saying 'PHP rocks because I can eat 50 bananas in 2 minutes'
reisio, i'd bet there are very few people who could make an entirely non-subjective comment on the subject.
I'd bet there are none :p
So what are we arguing about then?
but it's not whether the comment is biased or not, it's whether it's completely useless :p
about this - 'ptlis reisio, I can write an app in php (command line or web based) faster than any other language I know.' - being meaningless
I don't know why people bother with PHP :po" serve?
Mmm, a useless discussion about an allegedly useless comment.
I do think it's interesting that ptlis equates php and C++
was more specific than mattmcc's
someone else made a similar comment on a forum the other day
$
Zeros, only as far as they're the lanuages i'm most intimitely familiar with.
ah, okay
Windrose, I do intend to - it's one of those things where there aren't enough hours in the day to study all the things I want to learn.
for member access seems to get it compared to C++ all the time.
And looking at perl code makes me go cross-eyed ;P
ah, but you gotta start from a different viewpoint You know PHP - right?
CScript! :p
well … here's a Perl snippet: for ( $i = 0 ; $i 100 ; $i++ ) … see anything you know?
most languages these days are just scripting languages anyway
reisio, everyone knows that CPound is the best language out there
Windrose, I know they share alot in common (due to PHP's ancestry)
heheh
I remember first seeing it
'See pound? What the fuck kind of name …'
and then someone told me it was meant to be a sharp symbol
However, alot of perl code I see seems to use extensive shorthand things.
'Sharp?… what the fuck kind of name….'
Windrose, if you know of a good place to start learning i'd certainly be ameanable to looking into it.
Well go MS for picking a name with a symbol in it that you can't actually type on most keyboards without knowing special char codes.
yeah really :p
The tutorials i've found online in the past have been of questionable quality.
both are C-family languages, yes. But see … it takes but a little time to learn to strip the shorthand.
http://img410.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lolmousevk3.jpg — i have a happy mouse
way too much time or pot :p
ahaha
or not enough
i just saw it on my desk staring at me
the VERY best thing you can do is getting your hands on "Learning Perl" by Schwartz and Phoenix.
and i had to take ap ic
*a pic
heh
heheh
frankly I know of no better teachers than Randal and Tom.
that said … check out http://perlmonks.org/?node=Tutorials
are you an active perlmonks member?
nope.
Thanks Windrose, my dead tree fund is running low (i've been ill for the past fortnight thanks to an infected lymph node and I get crap sick pay) but i'll look into it when my funds are less deplete
heh
have a look around perlmonks - it's also a Schwartz Project or sorts
ouch, feel better
Yeah, definetly feel better.
is it "valid" to specify domain contact information that uses the domain in question ? e.g. tech contact for foo.com being tech@foo.com ?
I thought I remembered that not being allowed, but maybe I'm just thinking of DNS servers not being allowed at the domain they're serving for
huh?
dns1.google.com dns2.google.com, the dns servers can be at the same domain.
actually that's ns1 and ns2, but oh well
there was something that wasn't allowed to do with DNS
hm
maybe something about the IP addresses
have you looked at EC2 yet?
perhaps it was that they can't use the same IP
As a general rule, having your two primary nameservers on the same subnet is a Bad Idea(tm).
Thanks Windrose, hax.
hax, I've read about it, not used it though
so does anyone know if it is considered fine to have domain e-mail contact info that is on the domain in question ?
only problem I see is if the domain expires, they don't have that e-mail to contact you at
gmail
yahoo
hotmail
they could be used instead
type '/msg ChanServ REGISTER abc'
probably bad idea not to
Yes yes, entrust contact details for your business critical domains to a third party service that might disappear.
What could go wrong?
ok
then register two domains
It's really scary how many organizations are starting to trust Google Apps.
google is a CIA front
mattmcc, oh come on, everyone knows google isn't evil!
:phear:
they even said so
"So totally not evil", Anakin said…
you know what they say. Google is Mother, Google is Father …
it's not that people really trust google apps, it's just that google apps makes it so easy to share information
plus, who is to say that information stored on a company server is really well protected at all
Unless of course you're a tall firey redhead..
let's not go quite THAT far … *coughs*
ah, that's rather easy to answer. "I say so" feels ALOT better to me than "Google's one thousand and one highly trusted engineers say so".
No, it really is a trust issue. Organizations are using google apps as the sole place that they track certain data, with little to no thought about how they're supposed to keep backups, or what they do when google's service has an outage.
paotzu, I suppose, there's the issue of accountability though. If google accidentally trashes a server and loses all your information, they can wash their hands of it and walk away. You've out sourced your data housing and they're not making any claims about reliability or protecting your information.
it's also cheap… compare subscribing a hundred employees to google apps vs. upgrading to windows server with office live and an IT staff able to secure that server
why on EARTH would I do something like that?
Besides … when two people know a secret … it ain't a secret.
I'm not saying you do it, but that seems to be the common upgrade path
well any time you use a company's app, you are trusting it
So you're dependant on internet access for your business to run?
What's wrong with something like Zimbra?
At least if you've got client-side software you can get some work done in an outage.
I mean you /could/ use Exchange and all that shenanigans, but you certainly don't have to to be able to scale.
Trusting an app is one thing. Web-delivered services (google apps) are another matter, because for that, you're not just trusting the app, but the availability of _your_ data.
why would you use Exchange again?
true
Windrose, I haven't a clue, I hate that thing with a passion
apparently it's a very powerful server instance for like $75/mo if you leave it running all the time
personally, I would "trust" google apps to be at least as available and secure as data on some flimsy network engineering by some lackluster windows IT staff
hax, interesting, I wonder how it compares to vps
there you go again.
probably very well, i've read a lot of people talking about how it's a smarter strategy
what do you DO if your main server - poorly maintained - lose a disk array?
Oh, sorry. Lose A disk.
if it is raid 5 + spare, swap the drive?
Let's assume the people running it are not *entirely* incompetent. Why, you buy a new disk, and you roll on some backups.
goodie. What do YOU, personally, do if Google lose a disk?
complain and watch them not care
people have servers where if a drive fails they need to use backups still?
….
Ok. I think SOMEONE in here shouldn't talk too loudly about these issues.
I'm just saying if your server is that bad, might as well use a hosted solution
what do you mean bad?
That's a terrible conclusion.
Fallible.
i'm already using s3, and i find it to be very fast
ah, but hardware fails for all kinds of reasons all the time, even the expensive "enterprise" stuff
Sssh.
no, what it SEEMS like you just said is that "Oooh, as long as we use raid 5 we don't need backups!"
hax, how much are you paying a month?
no, you asked what happens if a single disk fails
Which place you very firmly in the "Muahahahaahahah! *points and laughs*" category, and you ought wait until the nice young men with the padded wagon arrive.
for s3? like nothing, i just got started
for vps? like $50, but i'm going to need to upgrade that once i start doing something serious with it
have two office Internet connections with automatic fall-over, an $80 router has that capability built-in
They're coming to take me away! Haha!
I must admit that I have felt that way at times
yeah, I did. As I said: "Let's assume it's poorly maintained"
1 cable connection + 1 dsl connection is dirt cheap
and, frankly, it doesn't *matter* what sort of server you have. You still maintain two backups.
Doesn't matter if the server hosting the app goes down.
my basic point is, google apps is a lot cheaper and easier to distribute than more solid methods
plus, you don't have to rely on not so bright in-house IT staff
hi is there a way to make a button disabled (greyed out)?
Of course it's cheaper. You're trading off reliability to save money.
here's the trick. The not-so-bright in-house IT staff? The poor server? You can *replace them*
what the hell do you do with *Google's* not-so-bright IT staff?
But you do lose some control of the data
wait, what is this 'google apps' thing that i'm missing?
I'm not sure. I haven't experienced this grand google apps outage yet.
google spreadsheets, calendar, documents, etc. hax
oh, that
I haven't listened to "They're coming to take me away" in years. I wonder if I still have that MP3 …
thats what i thought
you've not experienced large-scale, more-than-paranoid, corporations either, I hear.
you can't control what gets subpeona'd
Operating on the assumption that such an outage won't occur is an unacceptable risk with business critical data.
hax, I'm actually in need of a server at the moment. My blog and a couple gigs of files are on a server a friend of mine had, but he's cutting back costs and terminating service at the end of the month :/ Sucks, I need to see if I can get the domain he has transfered since I'm the only one who uses it these days and then get a server.
mpg321 $(locate comin.*take.me.away) … *plays* =p
Samus_Aran, actually, neither have I
you might want to consider EC2 if you can find some way to justify the cost over shared hosting
the whole thing looks very smart and really easy to work with
Anyway, just google (heh) "google apps outage"
especially because they bill by the hour… so say you need to put up a staging server or something really quick, i think you can actually 'save state' on your current server, then make a duplicate of it, do whatever it is you want to do, flip the dns, and close the old server
What are google apps privacy policy?
oh I remember that, but I was strangely using google docs at the same time that people were posting that it wasn't working
you know, because the overlap time would be so cheap, due to billing hourly
Right, because they have, y'know, multiple servers. Some can go down without others going down.
My bet is, they can share your data with anyone for any reason
business critical data, on larger corporations especially, tend to be backed up by entire teams which do nothing else - two, three, backup copies, off and on site, are common. These things *are* expensive, and Google … sorry. Can't compete.
if you're feeling nostalgic: http://atu.cjb.net/temp/They_Are_Coming_To_Take_Me_Away.mp3
But when some go down, this funny thing called saturation occurs…
My God, how are we having to talk about this stuff that should be assumed?
hax, hmm, I'll have to think about it. 75 is a little steep for a silly blog and some other things that aren't high traffic. I'd need a project or something going on to justify it.
Google is Mother, Google is … *shrugs*
I'm not trying to say google apps is some kind of fantastic option, but it is going to be adopted
Yes, that's what I started the discussion with. It's being adopted, and it's _scary_/.
I seem to recall Google dumping a lot of e-mails a while back after server issues
Organizations are willfully putting their data at risk, seemingly unaware that if something goes wrong, they have no recourse.
Samus_Aran, yeah they lost a whole lot of them, and told the users there was nothing they could do about it
Which is curious, I guess they don't backup the email storage?
Or they have lackluster IT staff.
that too
"Your redunant power supplies have redundancies?" - "Of course! What happens if the first backup breaks?!" - "… "
totally, considering shared hosting is like $5, but there's just so many neat things you can do with it… heh
i'm probably gonna try it in a few weeks
they are just screwing around right now and selling it at the same time. That's how software has worked for the last twenty years or so.
but … the problem here is that people are very busy buying snakeoil these days. Yes, it IS scary.
they put the free-$50/user price tag on it, and people are going to get tons of it just because it is cheap and seems to work well
hax, you'll have to tell me how that goes
heh. Did you see the "Why we should require that alt texts be removed" bit from the WHATWG?
I didn't, linky :p
also everything on Google servers is completely accessible to all governmental organisations that want to view it, no warrant needed ..
thanks to the USA PATRIOT Act and brethren
Samus_Aran, well the stuff at your business has the same problem
and, we should keep firmly in mind, including the stuff you have "permanently deleted" but which is now on backups.
indeed, but you are aware when given a request at your own organisation. they don't need to tell you when taking your data from a server like google
I've worked in situations before where the FBI has simply walked in and asked could we put some records on CD for them… having it on google doesn't make it more prone to this
Samus_Aran, that's true
see Samus_Aran's remark.
yeah, i'll definitely keep you updated
Windrose, what day was this WHATWG comment on?
it does actually make it more prone to it, because google makes it incredibly easy to get incredibly detailed data
SQS also looks interesting, like say if i started transcoding a lot of video or something
that is true, to hand an agent data you do need to physically burn the disk instead of it just happening
http://blog.whatwg.org/omit-alt
google *is* data analysis
hahaha wtf FBI are hypocrits.
it's a little confusing how that ties into the rest, but i'm told i should know about it
how so?
Are the illegal records?
pirate
things like correllating your google search queries with your e-mail account has me thinking quite poorly of Google's morals
in all cases I have seen it has been about identity fraud
if someone asks your own organisation for records, they need to know what they are asking for. if they go to google, and you're using all their services, they get a nearly complete record of everything you say and do onine
*online
apparently you can have farms of servers all doing things and posting messages when they finish, then have like one big control-instance that handles everything
because you pay for instance-hours only
Mainframe meets internet.
and that is only becoming more pronounced as google adds more and more services, such as their office, mail, chat, search, and 50 others they already have
so say i have some job that takes 20 instance-hours, like a big batch of videos to convert…. i can do that in 1 hour by just spawing 20 different instances
then have them all post messages back to the head instance and shut themselves off
Oh, identity records not music records - silly me.
don't forget the calendar
the one positive I see about Google's complete line of services is that Microsoft is having troubles launching their "pay-per-month online software" model
Windrose, hmm, he makes a good point about the issues surrounding alt text, but I'd fall into the "hurts validation" group of people he's talking about.
they were planning to phase out Microsoft Office stand-alone complete, by now
*completely
And I'm not sure longdesc was included at all in the HTML5 spec :/
also, people still do the whole "alt hints" thing where they stuff completely unrelated phrases into alt attributes
it's like Microsoft Internet Explorer being offered for free … but against Microsoft this time, heh
hax, yeah, sounds like a cool idea
frankly I don't even find his point worth considering. He has clearly not understood the issues at hand.
that is hardly a good argument in favour of *removing* them.
It seems to me that the people who complain about usability and accessibility have never actually worked with any blind web users. Having duplicate text = no problem, not having any text is a problem
most of the people who complain at what HTML 5 do with accessibility issues have *indeed* worked with, for instance, blind users.
same people who want to make everything "easy" for these users from what their perception of easy is… they should hear the rate that most blind users listen to pages at and they would change their view
if you have alt text being the same as some nearby word you've wasted around .2 seconds for a screen reader user
It's an interesting issue
xkcd for instance places the comic title in the @alt and some random text related to the punchline in the @title.
Do any browsers make the longdesc available to users?
yes. Via either the browser or a plugin. And does it really matter?
jaws in latest pricey incarnation supports longdesc in most browsers (down to ie 5)
even in Lynx? Fantastic!
Windrose, I don't know what you mean? Of course it matters.
Mainstream browsers don't make nearly enough of the information that's on elements available in obvious ways.
I would venture to say most lynx users who use a screen reader use speakup rather than jaws… I guess some people must be using the windows version of lynx
emacspeak must have some market share as well as britty… none of those things are very common compared to jaws though
VoiceOver too
frankly, I think it more important to note the attitude shown by Hunt and the WHATWG in reference to accessibility.
bbiab, family things
Windrose, sometimes the messages are quite bizarre. Hixie was going on about how hard it was to use jaws and it was a bad experience, but then he wants to cut back on information available to UAs in various places, I don't really know.
on the whatwg list
O_O
it's bad enough that microsoft half-ass crammed html into email
or allowed HTML in email at all :p
it's always fun to notice when people who have fundamentally misunderstood how the technology in question work manage to get a say.
theoretically you can do it already, btw.
until they started the whole html-email craze, the ONLY way you could get a virus from email was via opening an attachment
heheh
u r so right
never gotten an HTML email I was interested in :p
WebDragon, of course with Office 2007 they went back on all that, Outlook 2007 has a severely crippled html renderer
bWebDragon, of course with Office 2007 they went back on all that, Outlook 2007 has a severely crippled html renderer/b
I don't allow HTML rendering in my mail client
it doesn't even support float IIRC
you COULD do something else …
… like run an OS that didn't get wrecked by - snicker - a virus.
b… like run an OS that didn't get wrecked by - snicker - a virus./b
and have immensely enjoyed watching the disintegration of the known universe that followed from no one listening to his advice
ah, WebDragon http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa338201.aspx display, float, background-*
the list of things they removed support for is massive
now if only they would remove support for html email COMPLETELY
apple is going the other way, Mail.app 3 has built in html email templates that are supposed to make your email look professional
bapple is going the other way, Mail.app 3 has built in html email templates that are supposed to make your email look professional/b
*THWAP* what are you, on drugs?
http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/features/mail.html
what were they thinking?
awesome
it comes with a time machine
they were probably thinking that their programmers are actually available to make patches to the applications :p
unlike MS
hahahahahah
you gotta point there
also it still has a tiny market share compared to windows
helps a bit with the whole not attracting crackers
Is there a way to store a Range object server-side so that it can be recreated on the next page view, if not every node has an id?
salkot, you could serialize it yourself and send it back and unserialize it. There's no mechanism in JS for persisting objects on the server
And JS objects that have references to DOM objects would be useless in a different request context since they'd point to objects in a document that doesn't exist
Well, the DOM objects *would* exist, since it's the same page. I guess hat's really what I'm trying to store here, a DOM NOde
Norrel, a different object would exist.
no*
Why can't you just recreate the Range each time?
Ok, but you know what I mean. If the HTML is static, then the same DOM node structure would be there next time. I want the client to mark a DOM Node, and remember that mark server-side, so that the next time the client comes it can be marked again for them.
One thing I can think of is to remember how to traverse the tree to get to that particular node
but I'm hoping there's an easier way
You could use an id
(i.e., which # child to go to at each step)
right
if the node has an id
Why is the user marking arbitrary nodes?
cause they're crazy like that!
lol
is all text in a textNode?
like, all visible text..
isn't I don't think.
oh yeah, froms
forms
I should look in to that… thanks Zeros
how do I make a div extend to fit the elements inside?
I basically have a container div that contains two divs with content
but when one of them extends far to fit the elements inside, how do I get the container div to extend too?
width: auto is default so if you applied a width, that might be the problem
actually, height is the problem
are these divs floated?
Hello. Is there anything like Firebug for IE7? I have the IE Developer Toolbar installed but I don't see any obvious way of changing CSS on the fly as I can with Firebug, or the Firefox Web Developer toolbar, or Opera's developer toolbar.
cilkay, nope, sorry
Actually, I ran across a commercial product.
No idea if it's any good.
http://www.ieinspector.com - Anyone ever try this?
http://www.excelex.net/troy-new5
you see how the background div doesn't extend to the bottom?
Yes you can change CSS on the fly with IE Dev Toolbar
you can enter CSS properties for a given DOM node
(it's just not as intuitive as firebug)
I haven't managed to find an IE addon that offers massive advantages over the IE Developer Toolbar.
(though I think there was one that at least supported console.log)
Hi guys
Howdy
I need a website that allows you to record within Flash, converts that stuff into FLV, and hosts it somewhere
record, like, a screencast?
or any video?
I have the div block I'm interested in selected in the DOM tree. I see a pane in the middle that has and attribute inspector, to which you can add new attributes. On the right, I see another pane that shows styles.
from a webca,
I don't see any obvious way to add or modify a style.
webcam *
type in a css property into the attribute column
hmm, not sure of one, but if you can get the video in a standard format (avi or whatever), you can upload it to YouTube and then use one of those extraction apps to pull the FLV
then a value into the value column
e.g. color … blue
Oh, I see that now. In fact, it has a select list of attributes. Serviceable.
for floated divs, how do I make the container div extend?
thank you
right, any way to pull it STRAIGHT from flash tho?
yeah, "serviceable" is the word. yw
Except the attributes that allows wouldn't pass muster on validation.
that it allows
hmm, none that I know of But I bet someone's made something somewhere that can do it
Ah, ok. thanks anwayy ajnewbold
how do i center a table on a page?
http://www.excelex.net/troy-new5/ - how do I make the container div extend to fit the content?
………………
…anyone
+centre
http://dorward.me.uk/www/centre/
cool
how do i format the border of a table
do i have to specify a style="" paramater to all my td's ?
does anyone know if i get an internet phone thats supposedto make phone calls over the internet does someone else need to have one as well or can i ring their house phone?
no
voip
It depends on your service
but usually you buy a virtual number
which gets you on the PTSN
purely by my service and not by theirs?
you buy VoIP service which among other things gives you PSTN access (normal phones)
You usually get a VoIP number and a seperate number or numbers for use on PTSN lines
rite ok.
if they have one then can i call them for free?
Usually VoIP 2 VoIP calls are free
VoIP to PTSN costs money, as does the PSTN phone number
ok
But if you can convince all your friends to convert to VoIP, you'd be making totally free calls
so voip is the skype thingy?#
no
It can be, but that stuff sucks
ok
I'm talking about open solutions like sipphone or stanaphone
how do i format a table… specifically the borders
do i have to specify a style="" paramater to all the td's
But FYI, those VoIP companies have Ma Bell wetting herself
because no one should have to pay for phone calls anymore
do you have to pay for sipphone or stanaphone?
Only for PTSN access
sorry, yes i just realised that after i asked the question
usually they charge you a flat monthly rate for the number, plus some ridiculously small amount for PTSN calls like 1cent/minute
No contracts
and thats to anywhere in the world?
fuck it
you can place VoIP calls to anywhere in the world for free
ok
Not PTSN calls. Tho their rates are probably better than your cell phones
just upgradin broadband and provider is offering some sort of phone that can do this
VoIP is really taking off for international calls
there's huge savings there
if you guys would all just install LinuxMCE, we could call each other for free
I actually signed up for an account on yahoo messenger to make phone calls about 5 years ago
now, when I try to use it, my minutes never go down… I'm not about to tell them though
yeah, but that's closed proprietary bs
SIP is an open standard
for sipphone, do you need headphones and a microphone?
and does the person your calling have to have the same software?
if you wanna use your computer as a softphone, yes
They also make VoIP phones and also devices that can turn your regular phone into a VoIP phone
ATA's I think
if i have wireless then do i need to go near a computer at all?
wandering, you don't really need headphones, but it's generally a good idea for privacy and it kills the echo.
You can get a wireless VoIP phone
If you use sip, then the person you're calling can set up his or her own VoIP solution however they'd like
there's a bunch of softphones and whatever that can take advantage of SIP
That's what's nice about it being a open standard
whats the phone with this here then? http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProducts/displayTopic.do?topicId=15764
the thing I don't get is why people plunk down $500 on a smartphone with windows mobile, wireless, and SIP to "save money" on phone calls
One-time cost vs monthly cost?
I guess that is true… but I could buy a pretty massive calling card for $500
And yet, eventually, it would run out..
Plus the alternative would be all that plus a cell phone contract
http://www.excelex.net/troy-new5/ - any suggested improvements?
to compare apples to apples
verizon has been pretty decent, $60 a month with international calling at 10c a minute, free nights and weekends and like 700 minutes a month. And that covers 3 phones… which were free.
like my friend has a nokia E61i… and I mean sure, you can play tetris on it… I'm actually just jealous of it
ulike my friend has a nokia E61i… and I mean sure, you can play tetris on it… I'm actually just jealous of it/u
I got my cell phone contract through cellswapper
I just use my phone for calling people and some occasional sms. I don't really need a $500 smart phone. I mean sure, the iphone would be "cool" to have and a nokia would be tons of fun, but I don't really need it. I certainly haven't had a moment yet where I was like "damn I don't have a smart phone!"
I moved to a place where the stupid AT&T network dropped calls like crazy… not anything like their commercials had me believe… and switched to a better carrier and dude who swapped out to me sent me a treo 650 and $50 cash
I'd quite like a smartphone if only for being able to test my sites on an actual mobile device
Well, without borrowing a friend's
the cell phone companies probably hate people like me who get $300 phones and pay nothing for them plus deny them their contract cancellation fees
hehe
How do you avoid cancellation fees?
Would you consider the acquisition of a domain name as part of the initial setup of a site considering all non-ridiculous domains are now in the hands of owners?
you find someone who you can transfer legal liability for the contract to. cellswapper is just a place to post and respond to those requests.
who would want your liabilty?
As opposed to say, grabbing a rather silly domain and trying to build your brand around what could be a very obscure/non-marketable word.
someone who wants the phone
If you complain enough you can often get the fees waved too.
That must be a lot of complaining, considering most telcos rate slightly lower customer service satisfaction than the IRS.
the contract I transferred into had 11 months left, the contract I got out of had 18 months
