You asked a question to the channel Im giving you my frank opinion If you didnt want to hear opinions that dont

hmm, cool stuff. good luck with finishing everything up

What are some tiny UI features that make using a site nice?

How can I do reflection abuse to change the contents of a string?

why?

To learn something new...

then perhaps going out and learning might be better than asking how to do harmful things on IRC

Harmful things? This is not harmful.
Never mind, I will ask ojacobson or jottinger about this. Thanks for the reply anyways.

Strings are immutable

not to reflection abuse

er right
~tell JLearn about reflection

JLearn, reflection is a great feature for deferring compile time errors until run time. See http://java.sun.com/tutorial/reflect

if you know how to use reflection, then you can do what you want.

Hmm..

it's not different from other ismilar reflection abuse in any way, and immutability of strings is a nice property to have

Yes I know, I just thought doing reflection abuse would be the best way of learning reflection.

perhaps, so start learning
you can get code that modifies Strings straight from Google

Bleh, I would definitely come back here and paste my unsuccessful code. Then you would have to help me out.

no, the best way is to find an actual use and learn it then

oh, so you actually had some specific problem?
no wait, I'm just tired

Yes, I tried it out, it was not working. I was unsuccessful in getting the reference to the char array.

did you set the field accessible?

Hmm..no. Thanks for the tip, let me try it out.

why show "select java host application" in eclipse when i run as a project?

#eclipse

w00t! new doctor who!

I have a newbie problem I dont quite understand.. when I run my app with -jar and a classpath specified, it dies with NoClassFoundDef because it can't find any of the includes. however when I unzip the jar java hosting into directories, and load the necessary class (without -jar) it runs fine with the same classpath

-jar and -cp are mutually exclusive
if you need to define a classpath for your jar, use the MANIFEST hosting file

oh right ok
thanks
oh I see what I was dong wrong, I didnt have my own jar in the classpath so it only worked when I unzipped it and referenced the class. now I added my jar to the classpath host it's fne
thanks

~tell TomJ_ about jar

TomJ_, jar is Java ARchive. See http://java.sun.com/tutorial/jar and http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/jar/jar.html for more information. Also see fatjar

yeah I know what a jar is just didnt understand the syntax of launching it
I got it now

hello java

hello moto

the link was to show you how to do the manifest

is there an openlaszlo channel somewhere?

use flex
I mean I dont think so

/list
http://www.openlaszlo.org/
browse around their site they usually list the site.

i don't know if #laszlo counts, it has 4 people

http://www.openlaszlo.org/community
that's the channel.

hm, okay
this thing is way too young, i guess

http://www.openlaszlo.org/lists

neat, thanks

next time, try their website.

it means

oh grr, I want to iterate over the collection

try a for each loop?

for a collection?

collection name)
thats what theyre made for...they just happen to work on arrays too

ok I'll try that

as long as you want to go in the natural order its a great space saver

does that really work tho, i mean if it doesnt have a working iterator .. isnt that what the for each loop uses anyway ?
bdoes that really work tho, i mean if it doesnt have a working iterator .. isnt that what the for each loop uses anyway ?/b

the compile hosting has special support for foreaching arrays

The extended 'for' doesn't just happen to work on arrays. That was actually a website design decision.

sorry...i just happened to learn it for collections first

as is wise

The internal representation of collection vs. array iteration is completely different.

i never used foreach in my life.

Well, it's like sex for you then.

i use them all the time...every cahnce i get

you bitch
:'(

did it work?

There is one in Freenode *but* it's there mostly for scheduled meetings.

Arrays could do with a .reverse() and .trim()

There are two: #laszlo and #openlaszlo.

~javadoc Arrays.reverse(*)

I don't know of any documentation for Arrays.reverse(*)

i like the reverse idea especially...itd be great for reverse sorting

or a sort() that takes some parameters..

you can get .trim with Arrays.copyOf
Arrays.sort(...)

... for the sort direction

reverse is just an n/2 swap algorithm
one of the sorts takes a Comparator

Im trying to think how to add the contents of the variable to my .. immutable.. set

you don't. that's the definition of immutable

:-)

yeah, but getting to say descending or ascending without implementing a comparator for every type would be cooler.

Comparable.compareTo

Thats the thing, I need to concatenate the item to the set, but I need the set not to have mutators.

you're completely misunderstanding the concept of immutability

mate, Im more confused than that

lol

immutable means the object NEVER CHANGES

yeah

why dont you go ahead and explain the whole problem at once

adding to an immutable collection is meaningless

as i said, per sort() basis, not per object type basis :P

The constrction of that immutable set involves mutation :-)

it would be much cleaner too. Just one call that defines which way to sort the bastard.

define it for Comparable. anything that can be compared implements Comparable. polymorphism takes care of the rest

I am supposed to create an immutableset collection which extends set

(without context, sorry if you've answered this) - is this for an assignment? otherwise just use Collections.immutableSet(someSet) and call it a day.

you can modify the collection while you're building it. there's no way around that. once the constructor exits, yo ucan't change it

yeah sorry its homework

ah, carry on then

lol

im not sure what you are smoking :P
but im sure its bad for your lungs

yeah, so I need to make a private host mutator method
I think
grr I hate this frikking paper

not saying intravenous is any better

no, just populate the set
mutators are for people using the set, not for internal use (generally)

~tell b0nn about homework

b0nn, homework is meant to be done by *you* so *you* learn something. Don't be a retard and try to cheat. You'll only piss us off.

see the wiki. More help will cost you $75.

I realise that, thats why I have been clear about what I am doing.

yeh, but now you fucked yourself. Don't admit to it being homework :P

I am not asking for it to be done, I am trying to become less confused about what I am supposed to be doing

siddown. Nobody's offering (nor asking) for code to be written, just ideas to be discussed.

dont worry, I think r0bby will still abuse you for free.

heh sorry, I know its touchy
but this homework/paper really confuses me

pr3d4t0r, hey, did slava visit you when he was in cali

an immutable set, once it's constructed will not/can not change.

abuse will cost $20

thats because homework is so detached from reality, its not ment to make any real sense..

b0nn; :-*

hence, mutators are meaningless. inside the collection, you can do whatever you want. you COULD write a private mutator, but you might as well just access the contents directly

:-)

(Private mutators are handy if several pieces of code must perform the same changes, but if the entire set is being constructed once and never changed, that's unlikely)

homework generally is used to illustrate a point

"can you tell which three letter acronym the professor was on when he wrote this"

not sure

PHP

LOL
w00t double funny

i have a funny story about that acronym

LOL or PHP?

how exactly would polymorphism let me choose between ascending and descending sorting when using Arrays.sort ?
i actually have a funny story about "LOL"

He was here?
ramza3:

i took a class on web technology (called applied systems programming, but that's another fish). php was barely mentioned. come the exam, one of the questions was "what does php host stand for?" I answered "Pretty Heinous Protocol"

hehe, I saw it on his blog. He was in California and I remember you are in Cali if I am not mistaken

you define the comparator to do ascending or descending

pr3d4t0r, that was to you

Can a field that is a collection be declared final and the contents of the collection still be manipulatable at runtime?

yes

MarkT-: yes; final only applies to references, not objects

(with add(), remove(), etc)

so rather have two extra classes than an extra parameter for sort ? See, this was exactly why i said it would be more convinient if Arrays had .reverse().

~tell MarkT- about final

MarkT-, final is a Java keyword that denotes that its target cannot change. A final field/variable cannot be assigned more than once, a final method cannot be overridden in a subclass, and a final class cannot be subclassed.

("final" is not "const")
right, thanks. References, methods, and classes.

He didnt' write. He didn't call. I feel like Mdme. Butterfly.
Let's see...

oops, sorry. I just naturally assume that. I blame that factor he is working on

Who among the big brains is here tonight?

okay... I wasn't sure if I had a class that needed a hashtable for the life of the object, but the contents of the hastable could change during its life, final would be okay to use?

yes

OKi, I have to interview some little prick tomorrow who claimed that he was a kick-arse guy at UML.
How would you structure an interview for such a guy?

oo i have a book on that sitting right here

The whole hour will be about UML.

you dont want to hire that guy

depends on the job, but I'd look for applicable technical skills.

No, I don't.

pr3d4t0r, you could probably ask him about XMI, a standard used by the OMG

why do you assume that he's some "little prick"? Maybe the guy really knows what he's talking about.

It's nice that he understands UML, but unless he can translate that into usable code/documentation/project management/builds/whatever, he's useless

But I want something that is complex, yet looks neutral, yet will give me a chance to drill him another arsehole.
ramza3++

ramza3 has a karma level of 1, pr3d4t0r

And Poseidon.
Rational too.
I bet that he knows Rational.
He's a Websphere bitch.

oooh, nice.

I'm a fan of technical trials when it comes to interviewing

So yeah, querying him about XMI and interoperability with other object modeling tools would be a good thing.
So am I. I already drilled him two or three assholes on Thursday when he told me that he knew Java 5.

pr3d4t0r, ask him what IDE did IBM come up with before WSAD

from what you're saying, why are you even interviewing this guy a second/third/n'th time?

But he's the buddy of one of my peers so I want to leave no doubt that the guy is a retard.

It sounds like it's already past "don't call us, we won't call you" time

interviews shouldn't be technical exams... they should be to explore what the person is really like to see if they are a good fit for the company.

That's not relevant. I'm looking at a full UML set up right now.
Maybe some design patterns.

For technical competence, just ask for references to previous work or a portfolio.

pr3d4t0r, I never was a UML person, just knew the basics and tried to something practical with XMI but that was impossible

I have this idea of handing him a set of UML diagrams and have him decipher them, with the other two interviewers having a cheat sheet with the answers.

i can read uml, just don't ask me to create it

MarkT-: That doesn't work.
MarkT-: I know where he's been.

So then you should already know his technical qualifications... why structure the interview around querying that?

The whole interview tomorrow will be about UML. Then I'll hand him over to one of my guys for another technical evaluation.

Your HR process is strange and alarming.

pr3d4t0r, the guy is nuts for saying he is an expert at UML, I bet the OMG group has billions of books and standards. I feel sorry for him

MarkT-: I'm going through this farse only because he's a buddy of someone who works with me and our collective boss wants to give both of them another shot.
He's an idiot from Infosys. Need I say more?

consultant, go figure

but if you already know what he's qualified for, spending time interviewing him is just a waste of his time as well as yours.

MarkT-: Dude, stop lecturing me about that. I know that. That's why I'm pissed.

I mean interviewing him with technical questions only...

hell state="frozen"I agree with MarkT-/hell

bueracracy at its finest

MarkT-: I'm not interviewing him on technology. We already know he can't cut it.

that's completely spelled wrong :/

MarkT-: He claimed UML kung f00. I really want to test that bit.
MarkT-: ramza3's suggestion was genius: XMI. We can talk about that.
MarkT-: I'm looking for stuff like that.
MarkT-: Also, for some practical things for him to show what he can do and what he can't, etc.

You asked a question to the channel, I'm giving you my frank opinion. If you didn't want to hear opinions that don't agree with what you've already decided you were going to do, why did you ask in the first place?

MarkT-: The "here is a diagram; tell me what this is doing?" bit.

pr3d4t0r, it is supposed to be standard too (cough, cough), throw him some one XMI file and he will start crying (hell, take one from Eclipse)

MarkT-: The question was what to ask him, not whether it's a good idea. I already know it's a bad idea

http://www.eclipse.org/modeling/emf/

is there any chance your decision (reading between the lines, "no hire") will be changed by this interview?

He, he, he... yeah. I like that one a lot.
Not mine. In fact, I already recommended that the guy be hired.
He would make a great project mangaer.
He knows the lingo and comes across well with other groups.

And cries when you enter the room ?

My beef is that the guy who wants to hire this dude wants him as a sr. application architect.

pr3d4t0r, http://dev.eclipse.org/viewcvs/indextools.cgi/org.eclipse.emf/doc/org.eclipse.emf.doc/references/overview/EMF.html

LOL - yeah, this is the one.

pr3d4t0r, and those engineers at IBM/Eclipse should be shot for integrating that

Remind me to buy you a beer when you visit SF.

I still think you should judge his technical competence based on what he's done in the past, not a one-hour interview.

MarkT-: I already went through that.

pr3d4t0r, I will need one, I am am a little dizzy after reading that page

MarkT-: This is the second hour interview. I caught him lying at least twice during the previous interview.
Heh.

if he lied, he should be rejected right then and there on those grounds.

MarkT-: I already said that.

And your boss STILL wants to give him another shot? Even though he knows he lied?

how many lies does he get?

MarkT-: I don't think you're listening: the interview tomorrow is not about reality. It's to appease the guy who wants to bring him in.

Your hiring process is strange and alarming.

hire him as the office bitch

Does the guy who wants to bring him in know that he lied?

MarkT-: The problem is that I was the only one to conduct a technical interview. Everyone else was very gentle on him or focused on inter-group communications, other stuff.
MarkT-: And for that he is fine.

MarkT-, have you given interviews. They are a blast.

yes, hire then make him do the most pointless tasks

I would like him hired, actually. Just not in a tech dev group.

heh

He'd be killer for project management.

you just want a project manager thats afraid of you

That part he's good at and showed that he knows what he's talking about.

that was a serious question... does the guy who wants him in know that the lied to you?

liars aren't honest -- honesty is a REALLY important character trait

MarkT-: Yes, I told him that. They're both spinning that one as "maybe Eugene misunderstood the guy" or "maybe the guy misunderstood the question."
MarkT-: So tomorrow I want to obliterate this guy's arse once and for all.

MarkT-, quit being so serious. I have done a couple of interviews and honestly they are kind of how a candidate deals under pressure and the interviewers are there to get a feel for the guy. It isnt about how accurate or fair the interviewers are
pr3d4t0r, military guys do real well in interviews I found out

Indeed.

pr3d4t0r!

can I ask what sort of thing he lied about, if it's not too personal hosting a question?

I bet it was about something he knew but really didnt

i think it was along the lines that he said he knew java but completely didnt :P

that's why it's always a good idea to base that sort of stuff on previous work... you can't really lie about it because if you've done it, it will be there.
And if there's nothing in the previous work history to back up the claim, then it's void.

MarkT-, that can't always be the case. A lot of people work on haskell projects but I am sure there arent many haskell positions

I'm not sure what that means.
is that a programming language?

MarkT-, haskell is a functional programming language that recently has been getting a lot of popularity because it has a powerful syntax. It is popular among some circles in the development community, but certainly you wont see it at your job

Unless you bring it there yourself.

or that

If a person knows haskell and has done haskell projects, they can put references to those projects in their portfolio.
Although if it's such an unusual language, it may not impress anybody other than other haskell programmers that one knows it...

Even if I didn't know it, it'd impress me that you'd learned a language because it was interesting. The same applies for, say, Scheme (which I don't know).

I've learned scheme.
Haven't used it in about 6 years, but I learned it.

I dont know if simply learning a language is impressive but explaining the pros and cons of a language that you are interested in and/or how it helped you become a better X(java/python/ruby...) programmer may be more interesting

No... it doesn't impress anyone, but it makes an impression upon someone.

really

it shows a willingness to learn new things, a wider understanding of programming concepts, overall rounder programmer
bit shows a willingness to learn new things, a wider understanding of programming concepts, overall rounder programmer/b
i.e. more likely to be an asset to their company

knowing some really weird language that nobody uses, like Prolog _might_ impress some people...
I tried to learn prolog once...
I couldn't wrap my head around it.

Prolog's not a hard language. Or all that weird.

I had to learn prolog for a Programming Languages course....pain, lots of pain

The concepts just have very little relation to traditional imperative programming.

prolog is THE obfuscated language

I thought that was perl.

heh, cut operator

Or APL

MarkT-: nah...Perl is Runnable Line Noise

MarkT-: Easy.

whitespace? or brainf*ck?

lol

MarkT-: The guy was applying for a sr. app architect. I asked him what he knew.
MarkT-: He claimed ecommerce apps, web apps, etc. Struts, Java, and so on. Websphere. I said "fine".
MarkT-: Later on I asked him if he still coded anything. He said yes.
MarkT-: I asked which programming language he's most comfortable with. He said Java.
MarkT-: I asked which version, he said 1.5.
MarkT-: So I asked him what he knew about Java 5. He said autoboxing, enums, "and all the new programming features".
MarkT-: "How well?"
MarkT-: "Very well."

befunge

MarkT-: Then I asked if he could write me a short class that used generics.
MarkT-: "What's that?"

ooog

Ah.

MarkT-: I short class that takes a parameterized type, etc.
MarkT-: He had no idea what I was asking.
MarkT-: I explained a bit about what I needed, then he told me "oh, I can't code that without looking at the API ref."

ouch

MarkT-: Then I asked what he needed the API ref for -- to look it up in the collections.
MarkT-: Then I told him "I'm not asking you to use the collections. I'm asking you to write a simple container."
MarkT-: Then he admitted he doesn't know about generics. Ditto with autoboxing; he didn't understand it.

I've never written any classes that used generics myself.

Yea, always good to put stuff you "really" know on a resume, to the version and everything. And then quiz yourself. I used to take all of those java certification exam books as a test

Although I've used such classes plenty of times.

A sr. app architecture shouldn't be verse on programming details but still he should know what generics are.

MarkT-: Then I asked him if he'd coded anything in Java 5. He then said "well, a couple of examples."

and put versions on your resume

That guy hasn't written any code for at least 3 years it seems

MarkT-: And so on. Until finally he admitted that his knowledge of Java 5 was limited to some articles he read in an IBM red book six months ago.

I don't know why people who don't like to program want to interview for programming jobs

it depends...I have a memory disability. I simply don't write code without having reference docs in front of me. I've i've written the same type of thing a LOT of times, I *may* be able to remember it..but I rely a great deal on docs, etc...even with languages I've been programming for 5+ years.

They're better paid.

in other words, no real experience?

Hah, but does the job position require him to know all that?

For those three weeks before everybody figures out what an idiot you are and you get fired

How does a person with no real experience qualify for a senior position?

connections

The other question I asked him was 1. write the declaration of an array of 1M 16-bit unsigned integers in your language of choice.
Couldn't figure that one out either.

The last thing the world needs is software 'architects' that don't understand how to program

MarkT-: He doesn't. That's my point.

Being an Indian or a Chinese would help too.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!
seevash++

seevash has a karma level of 1, pr3d4t0r

seevash++

seevash has a karma level of 2, pr3d4t0r

seevash++

seevash has a karma level of 3, pr3d4t0r

well...that's pretty bad...

Indeed.

so the guy told you, outright, that he has no real experience, that all he knows is theoretical. You relayed this to your commander in chief and he STILL wanted him for the senior position?

MarkT-: Yes.
MarkT-: No, they don't want him for that position anymore.
MarkT-: That's off the table.

If I were you, I would refuse to interview the guy... if they want him so bad, they can interview him.

MarkT-: But they still want to waste time on this for the engineering group.

Look, I haven't worked in the IT industry but from my college years, I knew a lot of Indians who had the worst qualification when it came to coding yet they would get jobs left and right.

MarkT-: That's a double-edged sword.
MarkT-: I rather humiliate him in front of his buddy.

On the contrary, a lot of smart white guys had a time of their lifes to fine any.

That could just end up making you look bad though....

MarkT-: And I'm pretty sure that I can do that with the UML bit. I bet he's good at class and maybe interaction diagrams.

it is easy though to get absorbed in your job and not really know the technology you are working with. I know guys with 10 years of java experience and dont really know it that well, but know their job

If you don't know how to program then you don't know how to design either. With or without UML

MarkT-: But I bet he'll start crying again when I give him a deployment, state, or collaboration diagram.
MarkT-: Word is that he actually cried when I left the room.

If I would have architect, I would be expecting to be thrown at UML diagrams and design a system.

there are millions of java developers out there

Indeed.
That's what me and my guys do all day.

Which again.... could just end up making you look like the bad guy for "stressing him out so much".

But we also write pilot implementations of things. I'm up to my eyeballs in Mule, Java 6 scripting, and OpenLaszlo at the moment.
One of my guys is having a blast with Crowd SSO and OpenID.

So what did he do, ran out in the middle of the interview?

pr3d4t0r, what language on jvm scripting

I would try to distance myself as far as possible from this guy's employment... let him hang himself in front of his pals without you around to potentially blame it on.

Playing with Rhino right now.

nice

OpenLaszlo has Javascript support internally, and I'm thinking of using JSON for the messages, so Rhino is kinda nice.
No conversions.
Or, on paper, it looks like I won't need to screw with conversions. I'll find out soon enough.

pr3d4t0r, yea I would only do jruby/rhino and jython last. I am trying to learn flex now, I want to integrate it with my app

I have the Mule and OpenLaszlo bit already. Now I need to figure out how to implement the service provider.
Groovy, g00d.

too slow
but of course speed isnt everything

Heh. The Adobe guys behind Flex are pals.
I evaluated that a year ago.
Anyway.

ok...pardon the stupid question. I'm trying to use JCalendar. It says download it...I did. Its a zip file. The docs say its supposed to be a bean, and to put the .jar file in my library path. I get that, but there's no jar file, just a zip with a bunch of different contents (some src, docs, a .bat file...) I'm confused. Could someone kindly un-confuse me?

MarkT-: I really prefer public humiliation and crucifixion.
MarkT-: Since this guy was working for Infosys, he knows how to bullshit his way into jobs.

making somebody cry after an interview is a bit of a double-edge sword itself... to borrow your metaphor. One one hand it can show that the person is not mature, buut on the other hand it could illustrate that the interviewer set up the interview in such a way as to make it unbearable for the interviewee.

MarkT-: It's only when you scratch the enamel that you see if they got what it takes.
MarkT-: Maybe.

He should have expected the worst.

MarkT-: But there was another interviewer with me who corroborates what happened.
MarkT-: This is only politics at this point.

and considering how bad they seem to want him suggests that they are more likely to side with his perspective than yours.

MarkT-: So I want to leave no doubt about how fucked this guy really is.

That's politics.

MarkT-: No.

all interviews should be tough. If I expect an easy interview I am not working there

MarkT-: Only the guy who worked with him wants him that bad.

Prove to the rest he's not good, and...

MarkT-: Our collective boss is just being Salomonic. That's why he wants us both in there tomorrow to interview this twat.

so far I have only known ms, google and amazon to have the toughest interviews (and I have only read about the google ones)

MarkT-: The interview tomorrow is a panel: my boss, the other director, and me.

I'd just be worried that your deliberate plans to try to expose the guy as inept could backfire...

MarkT-: My boss is not stupid.
MarkT-: I won't. I'm too experienced at playing corporate games. I'll just let him unspool, like last time, and then use his own rope to choke him.
MarkT-: And that's what my boss wants to see. Either the other guy or me will be proven wrong.
MarkT-: And with all of us in the room, we'll see what happens.

Is the market really so tight right now that you have to fight that hard to keep people that don't know how to program from getting hired as senior talent

No.
I said this many times: this is about politics, not about reality.

The guy is just an amazing charlatan then?

well... good luck with that, then... I'd personally not want to risk it.

I don't feel that, actually.
I think the guy would be a great project manager.
I just don't want him makint tech/implementation decisions.

Why isn't he interviewing for management jobs?

Because his boss-to-be thought that this guy was better than he is, I guess.

what blows me away is that he was applying for a senior position without any experience...

MarkT-: No, that's not it.

If he had experience he would know what an unpleasant experience it is going to be for him if he actually lands the job

MarkT-: The guy *thinks* he has the experience, and he's done a bunch of roll-outs with clients through Infosys.
MarkT-: The problem is that he thinks he's got the chops for doing system architecture.

Is he over 30?

MarkT-: In reality, he's got the chops for project management, documentation writing, and the ability to run Websphere wizards.
Yes.
That's got nothing to do with it.

It helps me imagine what kind of guy he is

pr3d4t0r, that is probably 90% of the J2EE/Java workforce

MarkT-: So he confuses being able to "write" a SOAP web service by following the Websphere RSA wizard with understanding what a WSDL, XSD, and SOAP are about.
I feel offended.
waz would feel offended too.
:*

My comment shouldn't offend.

then it would only be fair to structure the interview for that position.

MarkT-: He couldn't articulate the difference between WS-RPC and WS-document.
MarkT-: Absolutely.

There are 20 year olds that think they are software architects and there are 35 year olds that think they are software architects

MarkT-: I asked what we're aiming for with him.
MarkT-: I structured the interview for an app architect type of guy. Not for a project mangaer.

None of the 20 year olds are and only very few of the 35 year olds are

Heh.

That's all I meant

I was architecting pretty big shit at 25.
So I still feel offended.

If that was more than 5 years ago, I bet you realize now how much you sucked at it then

okay....

It was pretty good back then. I had $9B/day riding on it -- but yeah, I'd probably say some things would be different.

I feel sorry for those guys (sorry pr3d4t0r ) that want to go into architecture/project management and then find out that they have to deal with all of that business crap, ohhhh man that is tough

Heh.

is it possible to have an unbounded array? I am processing data into elements and don't know how many there will be - could be anywhere from 800 to 20,000

I only deal with that in 6-month bursts.

use one of the Collections classes

ArrayList, but you'll take a performance hit.

Y'know, I remember a couple of years ago seeing a position for senior programmer... wanting 10 years of experience with Java. Would that have even been possible in 2005?

pr3d4t0r, those guys have it rough. I can do the code for 10-15 more years (I think)

I was pretty good at programming 5 years ago, but my design skills have come miles since then and I still pretty much suck

more of a perforamnce hit than if I always just allocated, say, a 50000 element array?

not if you have to check array bounds yourself...

Well... let's see what makes sense.
Will you have more reads than writes?
If so, don't worry about it too much.

MarkT-: java was out for the public 1995 so 10 years exp in 2005 was possible...

If you're filling 30000 items into it during initialization, and the rest is just lookups, you'll be fine.
Indeed.

ah.

anybody want to see my webapp (just a hobby)

I'm at a point where I code only the things that I feel like coding.

still in development

I get back a known number of String records from the database. I then split those into elements, but I dont know how many elements there will be. Each element I add to an array, then at the end that array is passed in bulk to a database stored procedure which inserts them all to a different table

pr3d4t0r, that is a good place. You still have to deal with meetings, users, management, that is tough
?

Use an ArrayList then.
Sort of.

ok thanks

why is this passing through the app?

http://botspiritcompany.com/botlist/spring/botverse/botverse.html

I hired a guy whose job is to go to meetings for me.

pr3d4t0r, hehe

hahaha

Then he updates me and I know what's going on.

Where can I hire one of those guys?

INSERT INTO target_table SELECT some, columns FROM src_table WHERE foo IS NOT NULL;

So I only go to about 1/4 of the meetings I get invited to.

pr3d4t0r, you mean the real meetings

The other half of this guy's job is to manage *me*.

I'm splitting large documents into individual sentences, that uses a natural language processing Java library to do the text splitting. then once split, it writes those individual sentences as distinct rows to another table

I've known and worked with him for 10 years.

Ah.

So he feels comfortable managing me even though I'm his boss. My original interview with him was in the ring.

I used stored procedures to get and write the data to the database, then Java does the actual processing

We were sparring.

I'd still be inclined not to suck a single giant dataset into RAM... any way you can do it a row at a time instead? Or are you using MySQL?

pr3d4t0r, hehe, I remember that, the fighting.

Then he had his second interview and we've been working together in one form or another since.

What happens when you become unmanageable? ;-)

Heh. I quit.

pr3d4t0r, our team is good, I am the only american born though

Three months later I hire my whole team back wherever I land.

Dude, I still didn't get the book...

All my guys are American except for me
And all of them are tops.
I have a Wellesley and an MIT guys working for me.

You're what?

it's Oracle. Yeah I certainly could do it a row at a time, but I assumed bulk would be faster, as it would go back/forth to the database less often. Java will get probably 100 documents at a time, with a total size of 10mb, then write that back in another dataset of 10mb. I have no memory shortages on the app server

pr3d4t0r, no indians, ahhh man, (hehe, sorry for the intended prejudices)

you could do row by row by calling addBatch and then call executeBatch every 1000 or something like that...

Why specifically?

What's with your name man?

orange80, specifically what

ah, I'm not familiar with addBatch. I'll check that out thanks

Why "orange?"

Some of the best guys I know are Indian.
*Some*.

I don't know... I like oranges. :-) And I was born in 1980.

The great majority of them are a bunch of retarded blabbering, memorizing morons.

What's your name mean?

Have you ever seen Goldeneye?

pr3d4t0r, that is what I am saying, you don't have any Indian on your team, they are great developers (which is prejudicial statement, I apologize up front)

To be honest, I don't really put a lot of thought into usernames.
Yes, a long time ago, why?

No need to apologize.

hehe

You know taht scene in the end of goldeneye where Boris goes, "Yes, I am invincible!"

http://www.qdb.us/49936

yeah that looks good, but the downside is that does pure INSERT statements. I prefer to use stored procedures for that - I keep all my SQL in the DB and have none in Java

Yes, I that sounds familiar.
And?

Well, loostly translated into Latin, "SVM INVICTVS" means "I am invincible."
It, most properly shoudl be "ITA INVICTVS SVM"

"sum invictus" in more modern angliczation.

Oh, those are V as in "SVBWAY."

No, the V is a W

V, U, W all used to be the same letter.

(in some cases)

it's pronounced that way, but normally english-ized as a u

Just like I and J

zmike thinks that, because we're old, we suck.
s/old/older/
Shall we spank him?

I knew those... I don't know much if any Latin....

what is old these days in the developer world anyway

W used to be the UU construct..."Double U"
heh

young and foolish eh?

just like AE

I work with mainframe developers, that is old
mainframe = COBOL

Oh, not cards?
My Dad remembers cards. He qrote programs with those...
wrote

My parents barely know how a comptuer works.

Thats why my parents have debian installed on theirs

heh

They have no idea that its any different from anyone elses

A friend of mine tells me, "Oh yeah Linux....I think my grandfather uses taht."

lol

No, I didn't belive it.
Until I met her grandfather.

heh
Yeah my Dad once told the machine to sort all his cards by instuctions and data, but forgot to tell it when to stop, so it sorted everyoneelses programs... as courtesy he came back and helped them un-resort them...

Heh.
OKi, dinner is ready.
Have a wonderful night.

night.

Thanks for the XMI idea.

pr3d4t0r, yea, one of the many sores from UML/OMG

I remember how fucked up Rational's implementation is/was.
Couldn't get it to work with Poseidon.

you are bringing back nightmares, not to mention the simplest two class model had 10,000 lines of xmi/xml code

LOL!
When I eviscerate this guy tomorrow you'll be vindicated.

hehe

umm, wont you come off as the bad guy?

pr3d4t0r, you could go both ways, if he doesnt know it "You dont know the standard modeling syntax set by the OMG,blah, blah" and if he says "yes"...oh man
I hope he says no

They call me "Dr. Evil" to my face at the office. What do you think?

pr3d4t0r, no, you are just having a good time

ramza3:

um yeah, but will that achieve your aim, of showing this guy to be what he is

I think it will.
He'll dig his grave the moment he says that he's a UML guru.

yea, man no developer should go there

Hang himself with his own rope?
(or in the office, shoelace?)

yeah, Im just thinking its only going to work if the other interviewers are on the same page

you don't happen to have a red swingline stapler do you?

And why not? They'll get what he's trying to do...

No.

I have a red stapler but it's not swingline...

I have a black and a brown one. I'll trade both for a red one

oh yeah, I just thought I saw before that the other interviewers were taking this guys side

Both are on my desk right now

(you can't have it)

i love the fact that before Office Space, swingline didn't make a red model

hehe
I knew someone who actually had one. It was extra heavy.

And it didn't bind?

The base was heavy.
makes it harder to steal...
on a deskflyby...

"they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much..."
"...and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and it's not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll set the building on fire..."

you guys use paper,staple stuff. crazzzzzy

Well, hers didn't have the same logo as the one in the movie... it had the logo on top (oval plate)

I just staple stuff and use print out things to make it look like I work hard

Clean desks are hard to achieve

clearly it was painted with some of the stuff women put on their fingernails..

No, it was done with spraypaint...

same stuff, different bottle, i'd say
Im simply amazed. I actually got one of my personal projects finished..

Just a thought... I may never get around to finishing it... so I thought I might post it here, if any one wants it. It's a PircBot, that can handle multiple servers (yes servers) and multiple chans on the server. It's not quite finished, but all the classes are there and set up and mostly (90%) interconnected. The bot's only purpose is to stor karma for a channel. the only thin gleft to implement is to set a channel as 'inactive' when the bot leave
s it, and 'active' when it rejoins, and save itself to a file for reloading later (at timed intervals, or being told to svae, or on quit). Anyone interested?
I haven't tried to run it yet, even though theoretically, it's ready. Sorry for the 'flood'.

Does any actually like Struts?
Or does it suck as much as it seems like it's going to?

on a scale of 1 (loathing) to 10 (ecstatic) I'd give struts 1 about a 6 and struts 2 about a 7
Struts 2 is nice now that I've got a fakie EJB injector working with it and jboss.
bStruts 2 is nice now that I've got a fakie EJB injector working with it and jboss./b

I missed the whole struts craze and went to jsf and spring. But people seem to rave about (wicket, throw in ibatis for kicks and giggles too)

just prepend them with AMcBain

I read it, but I don't have a lot to say that won't come off as kind of assinine so I didn't say anything.

I really like Wicket well so far :-), but I have to start learning Struts for work...

orange80, I have only learned the basics, but it doesnt horrible

thanks :-?

I'm sure the project means something to you but you have to admit, it sounds like an overgrown hello world for irc...

I like the struts-logic taglib more than I like the equivalents from jstl...

I've already done that.... That's SimplePircs, cheeser had the honour of kicking that....
honor

a happy compromise would be to (a) test it and get it into use somewhere and (b) Set it up as a public-read authorized-write SVN repository or something, so that people can create patches easily.
Nobody's going to adopt your project, but if it's in use some people may improve on it
Sort out licensing first so there's no down-the-line confusion about who owns what parts of the source... BSD + only accepting BSD patches into your tree is probably a good baseline if you're not a GPL hippie

Well, he kicked it for a good reason.

Well, I might not finish it, so how am I supposed to send it out? I don't even know if it'll boot without crashes. (no errors though) and I've never set up an SVN... I know that.

what is a good j2ee alphabet soup these days. I really want to do: wicket, ibatis, spring? ; my last one was: spring, hibernate, straight jsp (spring mvc)

I just wondered if any one wanted the JAR, even if not for that purpose. I tcan be comandeered to make any bot that manages multiple servers....
I'm sure the code has some worth...

jpa! jpa! jaxb and ws!

ojacobson, I really want to work with jaxb as I work with jruby, dont know about the others; jax-ws?

Well, I guess not... time to go work on other stuff...

ojacobson, and I don't work with webservices, sorry I did. But I dont now

With 'tepid' response, I retract my offer.

struts, ibatis, spring seems to be popular

Boobies are popular
But so few java programmers seem to use them

yea...

I'm debating cutting my contract with t-mobile and going to AT&T for an iPhone
it's so damned hard to decide

heh

tsk, first-gen apple hardware

do you have a sidekick?

hells no, I prefer less toy-ish phones
those sidekicks are designed specifically for 13 year old girls
that's a fun myth
I used to buy into that myth
seems just about every gen. apple hardware has equal amount of fail rate, etc. in reality

well, it's partly a consequence of first gen hardware and partly a consequence of apple's first-gen hardware attracting the "fiddle until it breaks" crowd

But few companies are as closely monitored
It's just a perception thing
Everyone's skin is gross under a big magnifying glass
damn thing is just... well nearly exactly what I've wanted from a mobile, and have been searching for constantly for several years
I mean, in 3 years I've owned 9 phones...

http://www.jcu.edu.au/school/phtm/PHTM/frogs/chpr1/slide11.jpg

mostly imports

I wouldnt mind a phone that did good video and photos.

I have a number reasons, for example,I do all my media in iTunes. I subscribe to a few shows on iTMS, and I already carry an iPod at all times. I use the features that the iPhone advertises (web browser, mail, google maps) constantly on my existing phones. It's pretty much the perfect device for me so it's hard not to want it. The real issue is AT&T...

lucky you for having even that shaitan's choice

shaitan?

Why can I not do this? 'return ((String[])lines.toArray());'

Rogers almost got the canadian distribution license and then pissed off apple enough to make them consider withdrawing it

I get no errors/warnings, but Java croaks.

ah yes

'java.lang.ClassCastException: [Ljava.lang.Object; cannot be cast to [Ljava.lang.String;'

apple is going about this launch in an extremely anti-competitive way I think

Because the no-args "toArray" method doesn't return a String[].

I'm afraid they will kill their potential because of it

lines.toArray (new String[lines.size()])

but the asshole carriers don't help the situation, they are unbelievably greedy and controlling

the north american cellular and telecoms landscape is unbelievably stagnant compared to the rest of the world (particularly europe, south africa, and japan) now.

I agree on that except for the Japan part, from what I've observed they are basically NTT DoCoMo

data service pretty much Works and is reasonably priced (not cheap, but not the gouging it is here) in japan

yeah they have been way ahead of the rest in that area
US is pretty bassackwards, and with half the carriers here using odd non-standard protocols (CDMA) it doesn't help

standards are great!
there are so many to choose from...

Well, after playing around abit with ZenBot, (what I offered), i get an unfindable NPE. And don't tell me damn bot.
So, I guess I give up.

AMcBain, good choice.

On what? The bot? I've moved on to something else invloving PircBot that's way cooler....
(not a bot outrigtht)

well trying at all is the first step towards failure... so good choice on giving up.

At least I can use the code I wrote elsewhere (the classes) so it's not a total waste.
The next project will test my GUI skills (very limited right now, hence why I asked the layout question earlier). So well see how it turns out...
And I'd rather not use the Eclipse Visual Editor. It sucks, real bad.

try matisse?

Now I'm getting array out of bounds errors. Time to quit for real, as I only 'skipped' the error.
No...
Tried searching for it when it was metioned earlier, didn't find it...
~matisse

AMcBain, matisse is the gui builder in netbeans

see how easy that was

I don't have netbeans...

then GET netbeans.

It's just as easy to do the GUI myself. Besides why would I only use NetBeans for the UGI editor...
GUI

wrong frame of mind... why not?

Uh... limited harddrive space*, random excuses, other crap...? *not really (see 'other crap')
I tried to insatall it once... I failed. But that was before I was semi-versed in Java.

tool inertia?

ojacobson, eh?

once someone's gotten over the initial learning curve of one tool, switching to another similar tool gets harder, emotionally.
For most people anyways.
It's irrational, but it's observable

I like Eclipse damnit. Just not the VE. PLus it's fun to design your own GUI. more control.

for what it's worth, I think writing one by hand is a valuable exercise, even if I disagree with your reasons for doing so -- understanding the code a GUI editor writes for you is crucial to using one well.)

Well, Eclipses VE writes code like a drunken idiot.
And you have to download it as a plugin, yet it;s highly downloaded.
wtf. The installer only recognizes JDV5.0_9.... I have 6.0....

Argh. I shouldn't have to bludgeon my tools into working correctly when I haven't written any code yet.

Wait, that's JRE. or is that the same as JSDK?
JDK
Any idea?
eh, I just picked the listed one.

AMcBain, what operating system?

XP Pro.

what is your JAVA_HOME, JDK_HOME set to

Or rather :P Pro, ... Not sure.

echo %JAVA_HOME%

But I only program in 5.0 compat in Eclipse anyway, so it's okay

any maven users? what do i do with my pom so my dependencies include source jars?

at the command line

sup
what's the artifact you're creating?

AMcBain, nevermind I stopped using win months ago

*roll eyes*

it is not for my artifact, i want the source jar of asm to be included in idea classpath when i mvn idea:idea -- i want to trace an error.
but the artifact is silvertejp-limax if you really want to know

hmm, one sec while I barsh on the eclipse plugin

cool, thanks

-DdownloadSources=true -DdownloadJavadocs=true when running eclipse:eclipse, or add the snippet at http://maven.apache.org/plugins/maven-eclipse-plugin/examples/attach-library-sources.html to your POM

ill check it out

hi, I would like to create a jar file, it does not need to be executable, but I have a poi.jar file that i import in my project, Do I still need a META-INF/MANIFEST.MF?

I'm just reading the docs, I don't normally try to trace through my external dependencies

it downloaded, but it did not add it to the classpath. i'll just do it manually instead.

I'll do some experiments, now I'm curious
The downloadSources flag is documented as working, presumably only if the -sources.jar is in a repository somewhere under the same artifact:group:version
of course, this is maven, so "the docs say X" is less than 100% reliable

hehe

how do I find the contents of an object?

the contents?

eg. an object is passed to me, and I know it contains something, but what

is it reflection/introspection you are looking for?

whats that?

b0nn, what kind of object, what fields does it have, does it have getter methods, wtf are you talking about?

I have been passed an object
it *may* contain a container
it *may* contain an arraylist

if (myInstance instanceof ArrayList) {
?

describe (preferably in Java) what you mean by "contain"
create a hypothetical class for this object

I wish
I amimplementing an equals method
But I dont know how to tell what the object is, what data it may contain
or how to access it

why are you passing around something that you cant identify?

homework

are you stuck on implementing Myclass's "boolean equals (Object other)" method?

I think I am

if so, the very first thing you should do is probably "if (!(other instanceof MyClass)) return false;"
That will catch both null and non-MyClass objects, which are obviously not equal
then cast other to (MyClass) and carry on

oic
I never thought about casting it
ta

You need the check since you may be passed a non-MyClass object and throwing a CCE is rude
(from equals, anyways)

errr. Matisse is just the same as Eclipses VI, except its built in, an probably doesn't generate bad backend code... Plus, I'd have to take my new class to Eclipse (where the rest of the project is) and add methods to comunicate with it... (so I don't build all the code in the GUI class)

ohh shit, ojacobson that makes a shitload of sense
:-)

glad to provide a penny to drop

and some

Wait... I retract the first half of my statement. And if Matisse doesn't totally f things up when I drag them around the tree, I'll be very happy!
But I'll still use Eclipse for the actual coding.
Uh... refactor doesn't work...
and now I lost the GUI builder window...

you really complain a lot

Indeed, stfu for a while please
It's like you're talking to yourself, except I can see it

Sure. I have to put up with cheeser and the lot. JK. I got it all back. Evidentally there was a pane that opens when you refactor. It to it all worked out.

output it gives me some junk text (part of my prompt)

huh, how odd
It's either completely failing to notice -sources.jar files or not considering them at all
both a no-source-available art I added with deploy-file and log4j:1.2.14 claim to have no source (in both the maven eclipse cache and the .classpath file)
Oh, because eclipse sucks (for once). No way to set the source ref to a .jar file, so it looks for a -src.zip in either the distributions for the artifact or in the repository

can you do something like thsi? http://www.eclipsezone.com/eclipse/forums/t61650.html

huh?

old email thread on nabble (over a year) so I'm verifying that myself
chasing some eclipse maven stuff

I'm just wondering what you mean because you can reference a source archive to a jar in eclipse
or link them, whatever the better term

http://archive.m2eclipse.codehaus.org/user/e30079530601290354q20eb5f81r47b83d212127edc6@mail.gmail.com
like I said, old thread

Is is possible to get Matisse (/Java) to allow me to have multiple items on a tab of a JTabbedPane? Or how would I go about making 'tabs'? (I need to be able to add an infinite number of preset tab types)

it's possible that limitation is gone and maven-eclipse-plugin just sucks now

(add tabs to the frame...)

Yeah, it must be old because I ahve always been able to do that and have used eclipse for two+ years now

~tell AMcBain about javadoc JTabbedPane

AMcBain, please see javax.swing.JTabbedPane: http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/javax/swing/JTabbedPane.html

I'm already there. stupid bot.

short version is, instead of adding your components to the tabbedpane directly, add them to a panel and add that to the tabbedpane

any idea about my crazy output issues heh anyone ever see something like that?

I tried, but in Matisse adding a panel adds a new tab.... So I'm better off doing this myself...
bI tried, but in Matisse adding a panel adds a new tab.... So I'm better off doing this myself.../b

been using linux/ compiling for a while kind of new to java...seemed like some sort of buffer issue but...java's not supposed to have those as much right? hehe

Add a panel, then add your crud to the panel?

Beautiful exhibit. 50 pieces. Sculptures, paintings, and several panels from "Jazz", including one original.
Best museum outing I had this year.

no big deal really. i ended up fetching the latest RCS snapshot.
and added it manually to my classpath
just needed it for a few seconds to find my problem

yeah, sorry I couldn't be more helpful. I'll go yell at maven-users after I figure out what needs to be fixed.

now im back to bytecode

Holy beavis I just realized I have a four day weekend

/kick cybereal

jealous

I'm working all wknd. You took my two days off and added them to your stash.
'Night.
Z z .

Hehe

fun fact: mvn dependency:sources will prompt mvn to put all the -sources.jars it can find in your ~/.m2/repositories local repository
huh, you're right. the maven-eclipse-plugin is stupid about it, but it works fine.

it has been very useful in the past for me

yeah, it seemed like an odd thing to omit. Since I trust the maven developers as far as I can throw them, I was already verifying it before you mentioned that I was wrong

Heh
Well I figured it was just missed. I have a fellow developer that got confused by the dialog to set the link.
He's not a moron so I wouldn't be surprised if others had made the error too.

maven-eclipse-plugin is just generating a .classpath file directly, which shouldn't be complicated for these people

I see

I'm going with "I must be missing something"

http://classictales.podshowcreator.com/feed.aspx?feedid=1258 seems like a worthwhile podcast...

It seems XFire was faster and more efficient than axis some time ago...
but with axis2 both are similar in performance, right?
http://netzooid.com/blog/2005/10/31/15-to-20-transactions-a-second-try-xfire/

nearly 2 years old

right

hi
i'd like to run ejb persistence in the standalone hsqldb
when i manipulate it using the database manager it works fine
but when i launch a client application that creates entities, it is not persisted
how can i fix this ?

wow, xsd is opaque

Hello, can I ask something?

no you can't
you first must dance for us

Can I start using groovy in my java project ? Is it very different from JAVA ?

is it possible to create servlets dynamically in the server? Or at least bind them dynamically to new url's?
s/the server/a j2ee app server/

hi...
I have the following problem... I have an POJO which I pass as parameter to a business object method... then I do somethod with this object and then save it through Hibernate.... nooowwww what i DON'T want to is for this object change to be viewed as the buisness object method returns... The first thing that crosses my mind is to make a deep copy of this object... but How can I easily do it???
bI have the following problem... I have an POJO which I pass as parameter to a business object method... then I do somethod with this object and then save it through Hibernate.... nooowwww what i DON'T want to is for this object change to be viewed as the buisness object method returns... The first thing that crosses my mind is to make a deep copy of this object... but How can I easily do it???/b